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Old 11/14/2012, 09:28 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Now, it's nothing. GTFO and stop wasting people's time.
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Old 11/14/2012, 09:37 PM   #62 (permalink)
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It baffles me yet. The very reason the aftermarket never took off for this platform like it did the 3000gt is based in a lie produced by some random fucktard sitting at his kitchen table trolling the kids who didn't have the nuts to think for themselves. Alas, too bad I built an SOHC.
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Old 11/14/2012, 09:41 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Maybe it w was because our cars did not come "turbocharged" from the factory...?

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Old 11/14/2012, 10:06 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Wouldn't matter much if there was a certain engine swap possibility. Man I can't wait for next spring.
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Old 11/15/2012, 02:22 AM   #65 (permalink)
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^^^ You are SO clueless. Just shut up!

The manual conversion has been covered, sourcing the custom parts is the only barrier to its completion.

The automatic conversion has been covered in Peps thread. It is MUCH easier using the Evo 6 T case which, what do you know, mates to the Endeavor trans.
Haha thank you something we can agree on finally
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Old 11/15/2012, 02:28 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I dont think I have ever seen anyone troll their own threads.
Haha I just noticed that
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Old 11/15/2012, 02:32 AM   #67 (permalink)
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I've had nothing but flame since I made a profile on c3g all but a few have been kind to me. So flame on as the human torch would say.

I'm serious about my build BTW I just gave up talking about it, but as I can see talking about it now brings more turmoil and hate, which I have tried to avoid.

I don't know all the answers or exactly how everything will be done. I can only quarantee that it will be done in time. So rather than sitting around and typing it up on a computer all the time I figured I would wait and post up everything in order as I do it when I actually start the whole build process. That way slide by slide it can be seen and shown exactly how its done and what it takes. Alas that is in the future not now. I don't even know why this dead thread got revived.

Nonetheless all in due time peeps.
It was revived because I did a google search and found it, saw what you were trying to do, saw everyone hating on you, and decided to see if after two years if you finally crammed the vr4 motor in. So I asked....
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Old 11/15/2012, 11:47 PM   #68 (permalink)
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right so I got banned for the night.
I wasn't actually trolling I was joking about it. Didn't think anyone would get butt hurt about it all.

What all of you excluding a few seem to forget is a little term called fabrication. I could mate a ctsv tranny to this motor if I wanted and just make a crazy retarded real wheel drive setup.

The reality of it is plain and simple.

I'm doing the drive swap I spoke of already. With loads of fabrication to make it work. The car will no.longer be a daily. I don't care how impractical you think it is. Its going to happen. I don't care about wasting money or time on something that is going to work. I didn't say tomorrow. I didn't say next year I haven't said exactly when. I was 18 when I got on club3g and haven't learned very much from anyone on here other than 3 guys, and they are the only ones telling me to do whatever I want.

It will work because that's what fabrication is about. making the undone, complete. I will no longer use this thread as it is dead to me and seems to waste my time typing and thoughts. If you wanna see me succeed then go to my actual build thread, if you wanna see me fail you better get to another dimension.
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Old 11/15/2012, 11:52 PM   #69 (permalink)
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It was revived because I did a google search and found it, saw what you were trying to do, saw everyone hating on you, and decided to see if after two years if you finally crammed the vr4 motor in. So I asked....
No longer planning on doing the vr4 swap.

do you know the 6g72 block is the same in the eclipse and 3000gt? The bore, deck spacing, deck tolerance, main and caps are the same? the entire blocks are the same? The dif is in the heads and rotating assembly. So essentially one could indeed still do a vr4 swap if they wanted. I just decided more power and less stress could be achieved by fully rebuilding the sohc. The motor build will probably be the most extensive build seen on club3g thus far.

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Old 11/15/2012, 11:54 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Now, it's nothing. GTFO and stop wasting people's time.

That's the first bit of hate I've seen from you. Towards me. Hmmm
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Old 11/16/2012, 12:43 AM   #71 (permalink)
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right so I got banned for the night.
I wasn't actually trolling I was joking about it. Didn't think anyone would get butt hurt about it all.

What all of you excluding a few seem to forget is a little term called fabrication. I could mate a ctsv tranny to this motor if I wanted and just make a crazy retarded real wheel drive setup.

The reality of it is plain and simple.

I'm doing the drive swap I spoke of already. With loads of fabrication to make it work. The car will no.longer be a daily. I don't care how impractical you think it is. Its going to happen. I don't care about wasting money or time on something that is going to work. I didn't say tomorrow. I didn't say next year I haven't said exactly when. I was 18 when I got on club3g and haven't learned very much from anyone on here other than 3 guys, and they are the only ones telling me to do whatever I want.

It will work because that's what fabrication is about. making the undone, complete. I will no longer use this thread as it is dead to me and seems to waste my time typing and thoughts. If you wanna see me succeed then go to my actual build thread, if you wanna see me fail you better get to another dimension.
See now, your missing the whole point of building this car man. This car was never designed to be a time attack car. The engine won't take mass amounts of horse power. It will however take a beating if built right and take your time. If you want a time attack car then you should go with the 4 banger, it's lighter and it has a stronger motor that had been proven to take horsepower up into the 1000 range with the time and money to build it.

This is just my opinion, but from what I've gotten from everyone that I know personally and 90% of the people I have talked to so far, is that they want the power to justify the look of the car, without sacrificing daily drivability. I mean, where is the fun in having a sexy badass 3G if it just sits except for a few days of the year?
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Old 11/16/2012, 12:50 AM   #72 (permalink)
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No longer planning on doing the vr4 swap.

do you know the 6g72 block is the same in the eclipse and 3000gt? The bore, deck spacing, deck tolerance, main and caps are the same? the entire blocks are the same? The dif is in the heads and rotating assembly. So essentially one could indeed still do a vr4 swap if they wanted. I just decided more power and less stress could be achieved by fully rebuilding the sohc. The motor build will probably be the most extensive build seen on club3g thus far.

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Yes I know they are the same. I have a 92 vr4 that I have had the motor out of twice now. And I also know what it takes to make the vr4 swap work, at one time I was even delusional enough to think that I was going to achieve it. That is until I did my research and found out that many have tried and only one has succeeded. That and I didn't like the idea of moving my firewall in 4 inches.
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Old 11/16/2012, 12:53 AM   #73 (permalink)
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See now, your missing the whole point of building this car man. This car was never designed to be a time attack car. The engine won't take mass amounts of horse power. It will however take a beating if built right and take your time. If you want a time attack car then you should go with the 4 banger, it's lighter and it has a stronger motor that had been proven to take horsepower up into the 1000 range with the time and money to build it.

This is just my opinion, but from what I've gotten from everyone that I know personally and 90% of the people I have talked to so far, is that they want the power to justify the look of the car, without sacrificing daily drivability. I mean, where is the fun in having a sexy badass 3G if it just sits except for a few days of the year?
i disagree with those highlighted statements
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Old 11/16/2012, 01:01 AM   #74 (permalink)
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i disagree with those highlighted statements
Really? Why is that? What v6 3G do u see out there pushing over 500?
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Old 11/16/2012, 01:06 AM   #75 (permalink)
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i disagree with those highlighted statements
You know what man... Your right. I should have phrased that better. Because this car can be a time attack car. Just not the way that I think about time attack cars I suppose. So I retract that statement.
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Old 11/16/2012, 06:53 AM   #76 (permalink)
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You know what man... Your right. I should have phrased that better. Because this car can be a time attack car. Just not the way that I think about time attack cars I suppose. So I retract that statement.
Now how do you think time attack are suppose to be? Any car or truck can be made into a time attack car. Look at the classes in NASA or SCCA. You dont need 500whp at all. You can take a N/A v6 and be highly competitive if you class it right.
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Old 11/16/2012, 07:05 AM   #77 (permalink)
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yeah besides that 500whp isn't enough for me.

800whp yay.
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Old 11/16/2012, 04:38 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Now how do you think time attack are suppose to be? Any car or truck can be made into a time attack car. Look at the classes in NASA or SCCA. You dont need 500whp at all. You can take a N/A v6 and be highly competitive if you class it right.
What I meant when I said time attack car, was derected towards his idealism of what he means by time attack car. As you can see he is referring to 800 plus as a time attack car. And what I meant was that this car was never designed to be that car and that he would have better luck with a I4 than a v6, if he hopes to acheave that goal.
But I thought about the way I worded it and decided you were right and the way I said it was wrong. Because in all actualality, this car is a time attack car, I have seen several that are built just for that. But none of them pushing that kind of hp.
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Old 11/16/2012, 05:22 PM   #79 (permalink)
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What I meant when I said time attack car, was derected towards his idealism of what he means by time attack car. As you can see he is referring to 800 plus as a time attack car. And what I meant was that this car was never designed to be that car and that he would have better luck with a I4 than a v6, if he hopes to acheave that goal.
But I thought about the way I worded it and decided you were right and the way I said it was wrong. Because in all actualality, this car is a time attack car, I have seen several that are built just for that. But none of them pushing that kind of hp.
well you will see v6 time attack car push close to 500 range soon. Problem lays with traction on those power levels. Geared boost control will come in handy for that though
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Old 11/17/2012, 02:09 PM   #80 (permalink)
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well you will see v6 time attack car push close to 500 range soon. Problem lays with traction on those power levels. Geared boost control will come in handy for that though
I know, the 3G comes with huge body roll from the factory and the ass starts sliding out at high gforce... Coilovers, sway bars, and peps setup for awd is my hope for solving the issue. Then I will build my motor like pharmics from the bottom up with a similar turbo if not the same one.

But yes your right. There will be 3GS out there coming close to the 500hp mark, I hope to be one of them. But 800hp. There's no freaking way. Not anytime soon at least.
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Old 11/17/2012, 02:17 PM   #81 (permalink)
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solution for body roll. Sway bar, coilovers, and every bushing you can replace with poly urethane. Corner balance the coilovers and you will eliminate most body roll
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Old 11/17/2012, 04:15 PM   #82 (permalink)
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solution for body roll. Sway bar, coilovers, and every bushing you can replace with poly urethane. Corner balance the coilovers and you will eliminate most body roll
Have you done the coilovers and poly?
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Old 11/17/2012, 06:04 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Have you done the coilovers and poly?
ive done every suspension mod you can do the 3g
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Old 11/17/2012, 10:06 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I just want ridiculous power to have it. I can have 800 HP and drive it like it has 500.
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Old 11/18/2012, 03:48 AM   #85 (permalink)
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ive done every suspension mod you can do the 3g
Was that before or after your pics at the track?
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Old 11/18/2012, 03:55 AM   #86 (permalink)
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I just want ridiculous power to have it. I can have 800 HP and drive it like it has 500.
Bro. Honestly I love this fucking car to death man. But 400 horse power is pushing it. 500 is rediculous and will have to be constantly maintained. 800... You will blow the motor before you acheave anything near that. These motors won't take that kind of horse power yet man. Maybe farther down the line Mitsubishi will come out with a 400hp v6 evo that we can steal the motor and drivetrain from and hopefully it will be strong enough to build onto. But this motor.... Especially since your planning on staying with your 72... I just don't see it happening man. Not hating. Just saying.
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Old 11/18/2012, 06:29 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Was that before or after your pics at the track?
depends what pics your looking at because i didnt do it all at once. I did one or two mods and tested it out on the track. Then made changes accordingly
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Old 11/19/2012, 02:56 AM   #88 (permalink)
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depends what pics your looking at because i didnt do it all at once. I did one or two mods and tested it out on the track. Then made changes accordingly
Fair enough. I was looking at the pics in your album that says track day ( I think) and I was looking at the ones of you cornering. I still see body roll, that's why I thought I would ask.

Personally I have the kyb gr2 struts and factory springs, I have 235/45/r18, the factory front sway bar and a rear sway bar going across my rear struts. This solved about half of my body roll. I want to almost completely get rid of it though. So I'm open to your suggestions.


I know coilovers are probably my only bet... That and awd. Which I have started to collect the parts for. Big thanks to pep
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Old 11/19/2012, 04:34 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Maybe farther down the line Mitsubishi will come out with a 400hp v6 evo that we can steal the motor and drivetrain from and hopefully it will be strong enough to build onto.
Shitty part is it seems Mitsu is going a different direction with the Evo. From what I've read the next step is diesel. Which could be cool i guess...we'll see.
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Old 11/19/2012, 04:04 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Shitty part is it seems Mitsu is going a different direction with the Evo. From what I've read the next step is diesel. Which could be cool i guess...we'll see.
Yeah... :/ I just wouldn't be interested in it though... I love the v6 platform. I just want it to be stronger.
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Old 11/20/2012, 08:29 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Bro. Honestly I love this fucking car to death man. But 400 horse power is pushing it. 500 is rediculous and will have to be constantly maintained. 800... You will blow the motor before you acheave anything near that. These motors won't take that kind of horse power yet man. Maybe farther down the line Mitsubishi will come out with a 400hp v6 evo that we can steal the motor and drivetrain from and hopefully it will be strong enough to build onto. But this motor.... Especially since your planning on staying with your 72... I just don't see it happening man. Not hating. Just saying.
you obviously need some reading.


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Old 11/20/2012, 08:39 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Um. Not same block. The 3g block has 2 bolt mains, you couldn't crack 900 horsepower no matter how built the rest of your stuff is. 3000gt block has 4 bolt mains and they're doing that on aftermarket forged cranks. You also couldn't manage those numbers on the first gen SOHC heads either without some serious geometry changes.

That said the 6g7 is still being heartily underestimated. Literally all you need to be ready for 450whp is forged pistons and the corresponding lower end work and a couple ARP fasteners. The 74 and 75 have stronger cranks and 4 bolt lower ends. People have hit four digits on both of those with just forged pistons and rods.
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Old 11/20/2012, 10:40 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Um. Not same block. The 3g block has 2 bolt mains, you couldn't crack 900 horsepower no matter how built the rest of your stuff is. 3000gt block has 4 bolt mains and they're doing that on aftermarket forged cranks. You also couldn't manage those numbers on the first gen SOHC heads either without some serious geometry changes.

That said the 6g7 is still being heartily underestimated. Literally all you need to be ready for 450whp is forged pistons and the corresponding lower end work and a couple ARP fasteners. The 74 and 75 have stronger cranks and 4 bolt lower ends. People have hit four digits on both of those with just forged pistons and rods.
aside from the mains. which is why I have a 3000gt block. nonetheless same blocks aside from what crank walk you would see with the 2 bolt. Sorry I thought everyone knew I had the 3kgt block years ago. Essentially though they are the same.

I'm doing a crower bottom end and having the heads fully worked. You must all accept that I'm shooting for stupid power because I can. I never said it was practical.

I've seen 1000 HP 1.8 liter miatas. Anything is possible


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Old 11/20/2012, 11:28 AM   #94 (permalink)
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But they aren't. Two bolt vs four bolt main is a world of difference regardless if they share head gaskets and crankshafts.

1000hp out of that 1.8 is easier than you think. All it takes is some correct factory design and being smart with your upgrade choices. The problem here is you have no real understanding of how the science behind this works. I'm not saying you can't shoot for stupid power, people build dyno queens all the time but I can and will say you're going about it like a retard. You're like that noob who came in the other day with a huge parts list he copy pasted from IPP, you take what you see and run with it rather than thinking about it and coordinating what would be the most effective way to go about it for the cash.

That's all I'm going to say though. You'll do as you please but you will learn.
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Old 11/20/2012, 12:07 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I'm actually in the middle of blue printing. So I don't have to just run with it. Also doing flow charts on the heads and designing an intake as well. Thanks for assuming I was planning to just run with everything.
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Old 11/20/2012, 12:49 PM   #96 (permalink)
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The fact that you are still missing what I'm saying just confirms your hopelessness. I digress.
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Old 11/20/2012, 01:30 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Haven't I said somewhere in the midst of all this at one point, I'm shooting for stupid power but expecting less? I swear either on this thread or the other one I mentioned that more than once. Maybe not. Nonetheless I don't want to argue. Its all a learning experience for me anyways and the only way to truly understand anything is to do it yourself. You can tell me all day I can't build that power, but formulas and ratios say otherwise. Displacement and pressures show me its possible. So the only restrictions to doing what I really want are, strength of parts, rotating masses, money, and ability to tune. You are always such a downer trying to overbear your opinion. I'm sorry I want to do something ridiculous that you think is a waste. How about you do both of us both a favor and don't waste your time or breath if you don't believe its possible. If you don't believe its possible just say it one time and be done. Why do YOU care so much if I waste MY money and possibly blow a few motors. What's it to you if I fail? Then again what's it to you if I were to succeed?
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Old 11/20/2012, 01:31 PM   #98 (permalink)
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The fact that you are still missing what I'm saying just confirms your hopelessness. I digress.


Please enlighten me. I would prefer you yo be straight forward about why you believe what you do?
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Old 11/20/2012, 01:32 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Better to try, and not succeed than to not try at all.


Or something like that.
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Old 11/20/2012, 01:39 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Ill be Frank and straight forward about what I really want. At the end of the project and end of the day what I'm looking for is this.

A v6 awd around 600tq and HP
I want the torque band to sit right in the middle. I want a 2sec 0-60 range with a 180+ overall MPH range.
I am looking to achieve it however possible. I want to build the motor to be able to push more than 600 so I'm shooting for 800. Overbuild.

I have a problem with OEM parts. I don't want OEM parts period. I want to keep stress to a minimum. Everything that actuates in the motor needs to be litened and coated either kashima, ceramic, or nitrate coated. Its not about saving money necessarily its about building it one time. That is why I'm doing flow charts and simulations, why I'm studying other v6s and how they react to certain setups and Km trying to bring all together. I'm not the smartest Guy or know all the terms right now. That's why I'm in school, and after I'm done here I'm headed to hennesseys school. I'm understanding all the basics first and then headed to hennessey to learn to make real power. Nonetheless I'm doing all the homework I can and this far I'm finding it more than possible to do the build the way I want with enough money.
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Old 11/20/2012, 01:57 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Better to try, and not succeed than to not try at all.


Or something like that.
That's exactly how I feel! Thanks.

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Old 11/20/2012, 01:59 PM   #102 (permalink)
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O a trade school, nice
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Old 11/20/2012, 02:17 PM   #103 (permalink)
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O a trade school, nice
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Yes a trade school which is better than no school. Concluding hennessey is not just a trade school.

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Old 11/20/2012, 02:23 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Im not talking bad about it, but on the commercial it looks alot like "uti" & "wyo tech", i went to uti and ive noticed the way these trade schools market

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Old 11/20/2012, 02:33 PM   #105 (permalink)
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oh haha I'm so used to people talking down in me for going to uti. As soon as I finish here I'm heading to the Porsche program if I'm accepted and when I'm done there I'm planning on going to hennessey. Hennessey in my opinion is a perfect example of what a tech school should be. Uti and Wyo have lost their touch and over 60% of the students are so dumb its unbelievable. Most don't know a wheel weight from a valve core. Let alone motor types power trains or even simple things like the benefits of changing your oil and spark plugs on time. Its amazing.
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Old 11/20/2012, 02:33 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Im not talking bad about it, but on the commercial it looks alot like "uti" & "wyo tech", i went to uti and ive noticed the way these trade schools market

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does hennessey have a commercial now???

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Old 11/20/2012, 02:43 PM   #107 (permalink)
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The only reason I am typing this out is because I want you to succeed so do not misinterpret my coarse manner in the light others have. I am here to help, it just isn't duckies and bunnies.

You are still completely missing the point. You don't need to diamond coat every square millimeter of an engine to make 600wtq 600whp. People do that kind of power with 3000gt's on 100% stock longblocks. Those stroker kits are for people going for 4 digits. And you can't really compare our V6's to the 3000gt's anyway in terms of dyno sheets, those engines were built to spin up and that's where they make their power: up HIGH. It's a completely different set of dynamics. We have die hard mid range engines and you will not make 600whp 600wtq if your torque band is in the center. Even power charts make output up high and that is why those cars last. Torque breaks stuff, building a long block that can spin up safely is what is easier on everything.

Making power below 5000 rpms is really damn hard. Go look up a horsepower calculator and do some experimenting. It's straight forward formula, torque is torque. You're not building a deisel, you want it to spin up and breath. Midrange torque is fun on the street but to acheive 600whp at or below 5500 rpms is going to require way more torque, take it from someone who has driven high powered AWD cars, I don't care how all out and rambunctious you think you're going to be with it, 600wtq is hardly useable. You need to acknowledge the fact that you are inexperienced here or you will end up learning things the hard way and blowing shit tons of money disappointment. There IS a threshold for what makes sense. AWD is not a magical cure, we FWD guys obtain great enjoyment watching puny 4 cylinder AWD cars leave 150 feet of rubber because they have to shit themselves to launch.

You're still acting like you're playing with a naturally aspirated engine. Or a supercharged engine. So far as I can tell you plan on turbocharging which is a completely different game than either. You need to understand basic turbocharging if you're going to apply knowledge to a custom designed setup. With a turbo setup if you're spooled, you're making torque and at these power levels spooling means you're making lots of torque even if your setup isn't supposed to breath down low. Superchargers and NA cars get rainbow dyno graphs, turbos don't have to be. On top of that you have a V6, so USE it to your advantage.

Displacement encourages spool time so the idea of using a stroker kit isn't bad. However why on god's green earth would you spend 5k+ on a crower stroker kit when a 250$ 6g74 provides more displacement and is just as capable given less than half the stroker kit's value in internal work. You're planning AWD, the weight difference between the 72 and 74 blocks is a joke in that context. On top of that, the 6g74 block is the block Pampina uses on his multithousand horsepower builds. You can not break it. A set of basic forged pistons and rods with a blueprint job is all you need for your desired goals. There is no question there, your focus needs to be on breathing support and spending all your money on some glitzy lower end only handicaps your options there. Cammed, worked heads is a fantastic idea but it's a given. The design of your coldside, hotside and your top end are way more important and that is where you'll gain what you want.

What do I see here? I see a youth infatuated by the idea of maximizing the potential of every single component in his engine to the ends of making power his engine could then laugh at for a long time. I've been there, believe me anyone whose built an engine has at some point. It doesn't make sense though and the ultimate truth of the matter is no one gives a shit if you have a stroked 72 versus a forged 74. The numbers and times are all anyone cares about and there is simply no argument for spending more than you could've to acheive the same exact thing: regardless of your goals, it's stupid. So until you tell me that you're willingly being senseless and therefore insane, I will hold these critisicms.

That all said, you haven't even mentioned a turbo choice. The single most important choice you have to make.
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Old 11/20/2012, 03:02 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Thanks for that!

I feel like we are making headway now.

OK so I do so acknowledge that I don't know enough.

I was thinking about weight savings above all other things when I say I want the crower kit. I want to build a lite weight motor as well. There are a lot of dynamics I don't understand which is why I'm in school, I'm no good at reading and understanding. I'm only good with hands on.

OK so I guess in that sense of what you've said I'm lost. I thought torque was the ability to do work and horsepower was work capability. I assumed from looking at other plantforms evened out torque and horsepower were ideal.

I was planning Turbo but Tav has me thinking about setting up a roots style supercharger.

I honestly don't know where to start. I've been trying to calculate volume/compression/fuel/ and spark to figure out per cylinder what everything needs to be to be able to achieve power. Also trying to understand peak power compared to overall power. I'm lost half the time but looking at the vr motor has been giving me an idea.

Maybe I'm looking at all this the wrong way. I just know I want awd that grips hard with high power.

Where do you suggest I start. I don't want to be naive, I'm not trying to be, I just have certain goals. I figured tuning was the major factor in a builds performance numbers.
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Old 11/20/2012, 03:27 PM   #109 (permalink)
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This what you want Jimmy?






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Old 11/20/2012, 03:30 PM   #110 (permalink)
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This what you want Jimmy?






um yes please. That even.looks good! Is that a thread on here?

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Old 11/20/2012, 04:00 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Tuning is tuning. The real reliability of a setup is derived more from this than anything. A car making 500hp on a conservative tune may last longer than one on an aggressive tune. This might mean a couple more pounds of boost and less timing with a richer AFR. So, you want to engineer your setup not necessarily such that its way overbuild but that it can make and hold your output goals on a moderately aggressive tune. You internals can either hold the output or not, its a basic choice as you build the engine. Its the circumstances under which you run the engine hard that change and with a conservative tune you can do so under more conditions and enjoy the fruits of your effort more often.

Torque is the only real output of a motor. Torque is a measurable force that it put into through the drivetrain and into the ground. Power is the amount energy over a period of time that the engine converts, this is derived from torque. Basically, how fast can you engine keep making that torque. It's a hard relationship to grasp, power is energy output and so the amount of air your engine can flow supports power even though torque is the only real output. It is all summed up by the equation below:

Horsepower = ( torque x RPM ) / 5252

This is true for all cars. Any dyno chart, pick and RPM and find the the torque at that RPM and calculate the power. You will land at the power curve. That is how it is and why I said torque is torque. Doesn't matter what engine it's coming out of, (torque x rpm) / 5252 is your horsepower

This is why I recommend looking up a horsepower calculator and playing with it a little while. You'll begin to see why an S2000 can make 750rwhp on only 400 pounds of torque where as a Cummin deisel needs to make 1400 pounds of torque to attain the same horsepower out put. If you start comparing dyno sheets and ET slips you'll begin to see that peak numbers are more coincidential then you might have thought before. Dyno charts that have a lot of area under the curves come from cars much faster then those with high peaks and low substance.

Numbers mean little if you can't stick them though, so why build a motor that produces output you can't put down? Even the best AWD setups run boost by gear in a lot of situations to limit output to useable levels. You have to engineer a million variables that are all contingent on each other to make something successful and that's not easy. I blame no one for taking their time learning it. It's completely circular logic, you have to know enough to lay down the whole circle such that it all adds to the next thing.

Take for instance my friend's 6g75 Galant. He made 230whp 250wtq. He puts half a second on a Cobalt SS turbo making 270whp. Why? Matt makes 220wtq at 2000 rpms and it does not drop below this point until he peaks power at 5500 RPMs. The cobalt on the other hand has a mountain shaped dyno graph, good peak but no substance.

What I'm getting at is if you want a really fast car you have to use what you've got an work within your means. The 6g7 starts off as a midrange engine, but make some changes and add boost to the situation and you can change this. You can build a boost engine that has more than enough output to get out of two gears without boost. That said you can also spool a big turbo way faster than the 4 cylinder counterparts so ultimately you can plan exactly where you want to spool with your hotside, coldside and compressor choices. These added in with your top end will dictate how high in the RPM range your engine breathes. This is why I love V6's, particularly ours. They are completely moldable to any ends you could possibly want. Low end, midrange, top end, off the line, you name it.

You don't have to take just one either. My setup for instance is built entirely for top end. However it's a large motor can spool the turbo down low which provides more than enough useable output down there. The result is a huge powerband, starting from whenever I spool to my power peak which is out near 7000 rpms. This makes it a fun street car and a good track prancer as well. I say this not to toot my own horn but in an attempt to illistrate my point. There is a lot of potential here but it is not so limitless.

For instance spinning the SOHC heads way up high is really difficult. We have heavy ass rocker arms and given lots of boost there are valve float problems. The 3000gt guys who push the envelope with the SOHC heads (MIVEC and non MIVEC 75 mostly) fight major valvetrain problems and they aren't even spinning them over 7500. So you have to see what is avaiable and for what price. The DOHC IS possible in these cars, it fits just fine. It doesn't take a standalone either, just some skill with a couple power tools to make the stock ignition fit. That said you have plenty of options, you can do whatever you like.

Where to start though? Decide what you want. How fast do you want to go and where (track, quarter mile, street)? Do you want to be able to drive it and have fun on the street also? Do you want reliability? Just picking numbers based on what other people have said isn't necessarily a good idea. Some people are quite happy with 300whp. It's easy and truth be told its a hell of a lot of fun. In some ways funner then making 500. I will say this though, 400wtq 400whp ran high 11's consistently in a FWD V6. This was replicated by a few different people too. If AWD is your thing then by all means go for it, the how to has been written but you gotta make sure it's worth it. Shooting high is a decent idea so long as you maintain realism. Start with parts that you'd use for any possible build you have in mind and learn as you go and wait for the funds to roll in. As you learn you'll gain a better idea of what you want and how it's worth going about it.

I shall end it there, but if you have any questions feel free to PM me. Like I said; I want people to succeed with their endeavors. Let's face it, if I didn't I wouldn't have any reason to stick around here.
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Old 11/20/2012, 04:21 PM   #112 (permalink)
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um yes please. That even.looks good! Is that a thread on here?

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Old 11/20/2012, 09:18 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Tuning is tuning. The real reliability of a setup is derived more from this than anything. A car making 500hp on a conservative tune may last longer than one on an aggressive tune. This might mean a couple more pounds of boost and less timing with a richer AFR. So, you want to engineer your setup not necessarily such that its way overbuild but that it can make and hold your output goals on a moderately aggressive tune. You internals can either hold the output or not, its a basic choice as you build the engine. Its the circumstances under which you run the engine hard that change and with a conservative tune you can do so under more conditions and enjoy the fruits of your effort more often.

Torque is the only real output of a motor. Torque is a measurable force that it put into through the drivetrain and into the ground. Power is the amount energy over a period of time that the engine converts, this is derived from torque. Basically, how fast can you engine keep making that torque. It's a hard relationship to grasp, power is energy output and so the amount of air your engine can flow supports power even though torque is the only real output. It is all summed up by the equation below:

Horsepower = ( torque x RPM ) / 5252

This is true for all cars. Any dyno chart, pick and RPM and find the the torque at that RPM and calculate the power. You will land at the power curve. That is how it is and why I said torque is torque. Doesn't matter what engine it's coming out of, (torque x rpm) / 5252 is your horsepower

This is why I recommend looking up a horsepower calculator and playing with it a little while. You'll begin to see why an S2000 can make 750rwhp on only 400 pounds of torque where as a Cummin deisel needs to make 1400 pounds of torque to attain the same horsepower out put. If you start comparing dyno sheets and ET slips you'll begin to see that peak numbers are more coincidential then you might have thought before. Dyno charts that have a lot of area under the curves come from cars much faster then those with high peaks and low substance.

Numbers mean little if you can't stick them though, so why build a motor that produces output you can't put down? Even the best AWD setups run boost by gear in a lot of situations to limit output to useable levels. You have to engineer a million variables that are all contingent on each other to make something successful and that's not easy. I blame no one for taking their time learning it. It's completely circular logic, you have to know enough to lay down the whole circle such that it all adds to the next thing.

Take for instance my friend's 6g75 Galant. He made 230whp 250wtq. He puts half a second on a Cobalt SS turbo making 270whp. Why? Matt makes 220wtq at 2000 rpms and it does not drop below this point until he peaks power at 5500 RPMs. The cobalt on the other hand has a mountain shaped dyno graph, good peak but no substance.

What I'm getting at is if you want a really fast car you have to use what you've got an work within your means. The 6g7 starts off as a midrange engine, but make some changes and add boost to the situation and you can change this. You can build a boost engine that has more than enough output to get out of two gears without boost. That said you can also spool a big turbo way faster than the 4 cylinder counterparts so ultimately you can plan exactly where you want to spool with your hotside, coldside and compressor choices. These added in with your top end will dictate how high in the RPM range your engine breathes. This is why I love V6's, particularly ours. They are completely moldable to any ends you could possibly want. Low end, midrange, top end, off the line, you name it.

You don't have to take just one either. My setup for instance is built entirely for top end. However it's a large motor can spool the turbo down low which provides more than enough useable output down there. The result is a huge powerband, starting from whenever I spool to my power peak which is out near 7000 rpms. This makes it a fun street car and a good track prancer as well. I say this not to toot my own horn but in an attempt to illistrate my point. There is a lot of potential here but it is not so limitless.

For instance spinning the SOHC heads way up high is really difficult. We have heavy ass rocker arms and given lots of boost there are valve float problems. The 3000gt guys who push the envelope with the SOHC heads (MIVEC and non MIVEC 75 mostly) fight major valvetrain problems and they aren't even spinning them over 7500. So you have to see what is avaiable and for what price. The DOHC IS possible in these cars, it fits just fine. It doesn't take a standalone either, just some skill with a couple power tools to make the stock ignition fit. That said you have plenty of options, you can do whatever you like.

Where to start though? Decide what you want. How fast do you want to go and where (track, quarter mile, street)? Do you want to be able to drive it and have fun on the street also? Do you want reliability? Just picking numbers based on what other people have said isn't necessarily a good idea. Some people are quite happy with 300whp. It's easy and truth be told its a hell of a lot of fun. In some ways funner then making 500. I will say this though, 400wtq 400whp ran high 11's consistently in a FWD V6. This was replicated by a few different people too. If AWD is your thing then by all means go for it, the how to has been written but you gotta make sure it's worth it. Shooting high is a decent idea so long as you maintain realism. Start with parts that you'd use for any possible build you have in mind and learn as you go and wait for the funds to roll in. As you learn you'll gain a better idea of what you want and how it's worth going about it.

I shall end it there, but if you have any questions feel free to PM me. Like I said; I want people to succeed with their endeavors. Let's face it, if I didn't I wouldn't have any reason to stick around here.
I'm definitely taking in everything you say. I'm going to do some research based off of the info given here and Ill pm you to see how you feel about what I find/ figure out.

Thanks for dealing with knuckle heads like me!

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Old 11/20/2012, 09:18 PM   #114 (permalink)
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thanks!!

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Old 11/21/2012, 08:16 PM   #115 (permalink)
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well now I just feel like a jack ass

thanks silver for the enlightenment. I really appreciate the write up.


And good luck to you devil. I really hope you do make the power your going for. I was just trying to be realistic with hp, based on from what I've gathered reading post as I come by them on here and from friends that I have that have stratus's.
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Old 11/29/2012, 10:02 AM   #116 (permalink)
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well now I just feel like a jack ass

thanks silver for the enlightenment. I really appreciate the write up.


And good luck to you devil. I really hope you do make the power your going for. I was just trying to be realistic with hp, based on from what I've gathered reading post as I come by them on here and from friends that I have that have stratus's.
oh heck yeah thanks man! I'm actually thinking of a motor change for what I want to do now.

Thinking about doing the 4g63t route now and just swapping over the full evolution dtivetrain. Didn't think I would but I want the Wright of the car to be leveled better and the aftermatket support the 63 is so vast. After everything silver said I realised how ignorant I was to the fact about practicality as well. I want something that's going to be easy to work on not something Ill have to make replacement parts for in the case I destroy something. Never thought I'd change my plans but here I am haha.

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Old 11/29/2012, 04:12 PM   #117 (permalink)
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well you have a GT you will have to swap out the front subframe and steering rack. not to mention you would have to swap in either a stock 4 banger ecu and get it reflashed or do the evo ecu (which is better).
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Old 11/29/2012, 04:15 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Go buy an Evo, GS subframe, GST rear subframe setup and get really, really good at welding cast aluminum. Swap the Evo engine, trans, tcase, front axles, modded driveshaft and wiring, gs front subframe (heavily modified), and the GST rear end setup.

Then reflect on how much money you spent. Or do that ahead of time...
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Old 11/29/2012, 05:07 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Go buy an Evo, GS subframe, GST rear subframe setup and get really, really good at welding cast aluminum. Swap the Evo engine, trans, tcase, front axles, modded driveshaft and wiring, gs front subframe (heavily modified), and the GST rear end setup.

Then reflect on how much money you spent. Or do that ahead of time...
wait what haha?

I was going to make new tubular subframes at home.

I've already got the transfer case transmission and rear diff collected. I was thinking about building up in a 4g64lb.

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Old 11/29/2012, 05:08 PM   #120 (permalink)
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well you have a GT you will have to swap out the front subframe and steering rack. not to mention you would have to swap in either a stock 4 banger ecu and get it reflashed or do the evo ecu (which is better).
planning on a standalone system.

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