TampaBlue's "Eclipsed(EVO)" project.-Phase 1/DOHC research - Page 2

jjgrappler · 12/18/2006, 09:46 PM

Also correct me if I am missing somethign here but to build the internals what should be included? I know you want to upgrade the pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft. Am I missing anything? Would you want the overbore pistons? I really need to look into compression ratios and such.

00TampaBlueGS · 12/19/2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malachi

can we start a thread for the people who are going to do a head swap. not a discussion, but one for people to talk about getting parts. not alot of post. just like, "hey i need this, where can i get it"

Sure, by all means!
ummmm... do nozzled members generally have to ask permission before starting threads or something?

I was thinking of starting just such a thread later down the road. I haven't reached that "Phase" quite yet, but if you're at the point where you need/want to start sourcing parts.... go for it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

I concur and maybe with all the possibilities that you can do with this swap. As I am thinkin right now about putting a 4g63 crankshaft into the block to have a stroker so to speak

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Also correct me if I am missing somethign here but to build the internals what should be included? I know you want to upgrade the pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft. Am I missing anything? Would you want the overbore pistons? I really need to look into compression ratios and such.

Maybe it's just me, but you seem to be bouncing all over the place with what you want to do. My advice to you is to set a clear and defined goal or at least a timeline to decide upon a course of action. Once you do that, you'll be able to focus your research a lot more. It's certainly helped me. I'm still a good 9 months or so from my projected start date on this project, so I'm keeping all the options open. Still, I'm leaning towards keeping things as simple as possible. I don't want to get in over my head, since I'm new to all this.

DNS-EN · 12/19/2006, 04:36 AM

The "stock" cams are stock evo cams in flash's setup.

jjgrappler · 12/19/2006, 06:28 AM

I am new as well. I would like to run boost, but I want the block to be able to handle it. I kno in stock form our block os strong, but it won't hurt to strengthen then internals. What would installing a 4g63 crankshaft do in our cars? It acrs like a stroker I heard but what does that accomplins? Is it better for N/A or FI?

00TampaBlueGS · 12/19/2006, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

The "stock" cams are stock evo cams in flash's setup.

The implication being that evo cams have a more aggressive lobe profile than the Optima's, right?

I'm just going to have to learn to read between the lines in your posts, I guess.
......and hope I don't misread!

FlashBlueRS · 12/19/2006, 09:00 AM

The only things Kia in my car are the head itself, thermostat housing, thermostat and valve cover. Everything else is EVO8. This thread hurts my head.

kng nothg · 12/19/2006, 03:09 PM

Speaking of the 4G64 Evo in D-sport... why is everyone worried about getting a kia head over the evo 8 head? That car made over 700+awp!

Seems to be a moot point. Only logical thing i could see is that the KIA head is cheaper.

Just waiting for my shit to get back from the machine shop.

FlashBlueRS · 12/19/2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kng nothg

Only logical thing i could see is that the KIA head is cheaper.

exactly. Not a litte bit cheaper either. Got the head and every kia part i needed for $230 shipped.

malachi · 12/19/2006, 09:19 PM

right but i want to up the compression.

00TampaBlueGS · 12/22/2006, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBlueRS

The only things Kia in my car are the head itself, thermostat housing, thermostat and valve cover. Everything else is EVO8.

Thanks for clarifying that. I think I read it somewhere, but I couldn't find it through any of my handy-dandy links.

I appreciate your input, so....

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBlueRS

This thread hurts my head.

I can't talk now, it's giving me a headache!

Here, take 2 of these --->

Now........, come back to visit from time to time. You're likely the one whose footsteps I'll be following most closely... in the distant future, so I may need your "hands-on" expertise when I get this all sorted out both financially and.... intellectually.

malachi · 12/22/2006, 09:14 AM

im ready to start shoping! anyone else to that point?

jjgrappler · 12/22/2006, 09:22 AM

Me pretty much

adrian15 · 01/03/2007, 11:51 AM

So Tampa hows the progress coming along?

00TampaBlueGS · 01/03/2007, 11:56 AM

Just got back from holiday vacation, where I did little to no research.
My studies will continue, though.

I was thinking I'd post some pics for reference.
EDIT: Here are a couple from that Evo 2.3L rebuild I linked on the first page.
> ( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313 )
1. Evo VIII bottom end & head gasket. The greatest (only?) difference in this block vs. my 4g64 is a shorter stroke.

2. Here's a top view of the Evo head on that block with only the cams/ cam gears installed. What's missing, I believe, are the rockers, lifter springs, and.... valves themselves?

Lots more pics of the Evo head can be found in the Photobucket link balla4880 provided in his 2005 thread in the FI/Nitrous section.
( My New Project )
One pic in particular raised a question for me.

Does the design of the evo head use a coil-over-plug design similar to the 4g64?

I see no holes in the valve cover! (aside from the one for the oil cap)

^From whence does the signal come en route to the combustion chamber?!?

Anyone else have some interesting or pertinent questions or discoveries?
Adrian, any research sources you'd like to share?

00TampaBlueGS · 01/22/2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

What do you want with a swap like this? Higher or lower compression? Whats the difference? What gains are there? I know nothing about engine compression. Its obviousely important because its talekd about alot on these threads.

It is seemingly important, and I'll revisit the compression issue one more time before moving on.
Bitter asked the same question in a thread he started entitled simply "Compression". Read the article someone linked in reply for a detailed answer.

Okay, so I'm now broadening my understanding of fuel injectors and the system(s) they are tied to.
Once again, enter Howstuffworks.com for a six-part article on How Fuel Injection Systems Work.
I'm not going to break it all down as I did in post #6 of this thread... far too laborious.
Suffice it to say, it's a good read that tackles the relative simplicity (and history) of carburettors to the far more complex setup and ECU calculations in a Multi-port Fuel Injection system.
Particularly interesting to me was the idea (from part 3) that "the gas pedal is really the air pedal". It's a different way of looking at it, and far more accurate!

I'll be logging off now. I suspect my computer's rife with spyware and other crap. It's slowed waaay down.

Chief Brody · 01/22/2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

Just got back from holiday vacation, where I did little to no research.
My studies will continue, though.

I was thinking I'd post some pics for reference.
EDIT: Here are a couple from that Evo 2.3L rebuild I linked on the first page.
> ( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313 )
1. Evo VIII bottom end & head gasket. The greatest (only?) difference in this block vs. my 4g64 is a shorter stroke.

2. Here's a top view of the Evo head on that block with only the cams/ cam gears installed. What's missing, I believe, are the rockers, lifter springs, and.... valves themselves?

Lots more pics of the Evo head can be found in the Photobucket link balla4880 provided in his 2005 thread in the FI/Nitrous section.
( My New Project )
One pic in particular raised a question for me.

Does the design of the evo head use a coil-over-plug design similar to the 4g64?

I see no holes in the valve cover! (aside from the one for the oil cap)

^From whence does the signal come en route to the combustion chamber?!?

Anyone else have some interesting or pertinent questions or discoveries?
Adrian, any research sources you'd like to share?

Coil packs are under the black cover I believe.

goosey2099 · 01/22/2007, 08:29 AM

lol

Dlipse85 · 01/31/2007, 10:46 AM

What would most likely be better then placeing an optima head on, is do a 4G63T head converstion. This can be done with minimal internal engine mods. All that really needs to be done is the extra holes to be filled. The 1G head will give you DOHC and more cc's, plus with a 1G or 2G ECU (for turbo knock) you can easliy turbo charge the 4G64 (4g63T stroker). :-) Then again...im no expert...

jjgrappler · 01/31/2007, 11:25 AM

It's been mentioned before but it sits differently in the engine then ours.

00TampaBlueGS · 01/31/2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

It's been mentioned before but it sits differently in the engine then ours.

In fact, before this thread got bumped up, there was a thread sitting closer to the top entitled 3G-2G-Evo Engine Swap Information. It goes into more detail on what goes with what and how things sit.

Thanks for bumping my thread, though! I have new info to add in the form of a link to evolutionm.com. You reminded me, so I'll be back later to do so...

(

..been awake too long..

)
_______________________________________________
Oh, and thanks for confirming my suspicions, Chief Brody... did you really need to quote my ENTIRE post, though?!?

Lastly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by goosey2099

lol

SILENCE, G lover!

00TampaBlueGS · 02/01/2007, 07:31 AM

Some of the folks on Evolutionm.com really know their $#!7 when it comes to engine building!
The following thread illustrates one option when pairing our 4g64 block with a evo (or optima) head:
"4g64 2.1L Build Up" -Essentially, what he's done is DESTROKE the 4g64 block using the (shorter stroke) crankshaft from a 4g63. The pictures on the first page are of just the block, crank, and pistons... not the head. The discussion, however, touches on a lot of issues with the complete pairing.

I'm currently reading through this 8 page thread (now on page 5), and I'm finding quite a bit of food for thought. I invite anybody interested in this to join me in soaking up more knowledge. ...Some will be review for those who've followed my research thus far and have paid attention.

kidney_bean · 02/13/2007, 02:07 AM

I hope this doesn't come off as sounding like I'm revisting areas that have already been discussed, but I figured I'd add my two cents since they may help people with deciding things such as whether to use the Optima head or the EVO head. To start out, while I may be newer than some to Club3G, as well as to the Eclipse iteself, I'm not new to the performance side of automobiles. Not to boast (but to explain where some of my knowledge has come from), I graduated 2nd in my class from Universal Technical Institute (UTI) in Phoenix, AZ with the certified auto & diesel course. After that, I worked in the automotive industry for a while (both working on cars and forklifts), followed by 4 years as a mechanic in the Air Force. I'm still in the Air Force but changed jobs a few years back and now pursue this simply as a hobby.

On to the topic. Some have asked what would be better between the higher compression from the EVO head or the lower compression from the Optima head. The answer lies in what you are planning to build your engine (and car) for. With higher compression, the engine becomes more efficient and is able produce more power through a more efficient burn of the fuel. This directly translates into more power to the flywheel. This practice has been used for years with the muscle car crowd, and is down to a science in the arena. With higher compression, you must take both pre-ignition and detonation into consideration. Pre-ignition is when the fuel ignites before spark plug fires, while detonation is an uncontrolled burning (actually a violent explosion) of the fuel. Usually, higher octane fuel is required when the compression gets too high, but many engines today have safely run 10:1 compression with mid-grade, and sometimes low-grade (87 octane) gasoline. In a naturally aspirated context, high compression is a great way to increase the power output of an engine, as well as harness more potential from additional modifications. For forced induction applications, a lower compression is often desireable to reduce the possibility of pre-ignition and detonation...this is where the Optima head would come into play. In a sense, both raising the compression of a naturally aspirated engine, or utilizing forced induction on a low compression engine, are methods used to compress more of a volumetric quantitiy of air within the confines of the engine used...forced induction just does this to a much greater extent.

For those of you running a naturally aspirated engine who may want to switch to forced induction down the road, I have a third alternative for you 9as some of you may have already considered). For the short term, you can utilize the EVO head (if you're willing to pay the extra money) which will increase your static compression, and enjoy the increased power without concern for making improvements to your bottom end. When it comes time to add forced induction, you can rebuild the bottom end with dished pistons, which will increase the volumetric size of the combustion chamber (below the head gasket) and safely and efficiently lower your compression. I have not yet checked into the availability of such pistons for our engine, but from past experience you can simply contact any high-end piston manufacturer (I have had good luck with Arias in the past) and have them make a custom set of pistons with any features you desire. The price really shouldn't be too much more than a typical set (I was quoted about $100 each for 2.4L Stratus pistons about 8 years ago from Arias). This way, you could enjoy the increased compression now (while you're naturally aspirated), and reap the efficiency when you move to forced induction.

As for the question of how Flash was able to achieve increased power with the use of stock (EVO) cams, here's a little more explanation. As Tampa pointed out, the camshafts themselves are not opening and closing, but they directly control the opening and closing of the valves, which in turn allow the unburnt air/fuel mixture to enter the combustion chamber, and burnt exhaust gasses to be expelled. I don't have the camshaft specifications for our stock cam, or the stock EVO cam, but I think I can make an educated assumption. The cams in the EVO setup probably utilize a different duration, lift, and possibly centerline that is tailored more towards producing power in the upper RPM spectrum than the lower. Our engine, on the other hand, probably is designed to produce more power in the lower RPM spectrum since that is where most average drivers spend their time with regards to normal street driving. By increasing the duration (how long the valve is open for) the cam can let a greater quantity of air move in and out of the cylinder. Increasing the lift does much the same thing, but without respect to rotation of the crankshaft. Valve centerline is the relation between the center of the intake lobe and the center of the exhaust lobe (not adjustable on a SOHC, but it is adjustable on a DOHC). By using charachteristics that would allow for an increase in the amount of air/fuel that can physically enter the engine (by increasing the duration and lift), an engine will make more power at the upper RPMs but seem to make less at lower RPMs (which is what Flash reported in his post). This is also the reason that many "race" cams are listed as not being for street use...the intended powerband is above what is required for normal street driving, but great for high-RPM racing. Although many people have utilize high-lift/duration cams on the street, there is usually a loss of what the average person would consider to be "streetability" of the engine.

Another point which I have not yet looked into, but maybe someone can shed some light on, is that I assume that in addition to a smaller combustion chamber, the EVO head might benefit from more efficient intake and exhaust ports. I'm not sure if anyone has compared this aspect of the two heads yet, but if the EVO head has larger and more efficient ports, then an even greater potential for power production could be achieved.

Tampa, sorry if some of this was a little off topic, but I have recently begun reading up on performing this swap and really like the focus you have maintained here...I just wanted to explain a couple thoughts that had been brought up for those who were wondering. Hopefully this was some use to those who take the time to read through it.

DNS-EN · 02/13/2007, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidney_bean

Another point which I have not yet looked into, but maybe someone can shed some light on, is that I assume that in addition to a smaller combustion chamber, the EVO head might benefit from more efficient intake and exhaust ports. I'm not sure if anyone has compared this aspect of the two heads yet, but if the EVO head has larger and more efficient ports, then an even greater potential for power production could be achieved.

Thats one hell of an essay...The valves are exactly the same size as well as the exhuast ports. Also noone has swapped an evo head onto a stock block and the pistons in the stock block do not have valve reliefs so it's hard to say if it wouold even work. The kia head does have a larger combustion chamber it's 56cc the evo head is 43cc.

kidney_bean · 02/13/2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Thats one hell of an essay...The valves are exactly the same size as well as the exhuast ports. Also noone has swapped an evo head onto a stock block and the pistons in the stock block do not have valve reliefs so it's hard to say if it wouold even work. The kia head does have a larger combustion chamber it's 56cc the evo head is 43cc.

Yeah, I tend to be long winded...sorry about that. Okay, so the valves and exhaust ports are the same...in that case the Kia head might be the route I take. I plan to P&P the head some myself anyways (including gasket matching at least the intake.) I'm still torn on how I want to build the bottom end, and whether or not I want to use FI or stay N/A...I guess those will come with time. I definitely want to swap to a DOHC setup though.

Just to ask a question though, a Kia head will work on a stock bottom end with no problem (if I understand it correctly), and you say that no one has swapped an EVO head onto a stock bottom end, but they both have the same valves (and I would assume the same valve geometry since you can install EVO cams in a Kia head), then why is it that there might be clearance issues with an EVO head on a stock block? I might be reading too much into it though...maybe its just that no one spends the money on an EVO head if they're running a stock bottom end. I understand we don't have valve reliefs with the stock pistons, but if the only difference would be the size of the combustion chamber, then geometrically speaking it should work...I guess that's where checking your clearances comes in. For those who have the Kia head with EVO cams, have you had any clearance issues with the stock pistons? Same goes for anyone running aftermarket cams...does anyone know what size cams we could get away with on our stock bottom end before we push a valve into the piston (I'm thinking of looking at the 264 or 272 cams that are out there).

00TampaBlueGS · 02/13/2007, 05:59 AM

I'm no stranger to long-windedness, but I think I may have just been outdone!!

Seriously, I appreciate your taking the time to add your own take on things to this thread. I haven't the time to read it all at the moment (work doesn;t want me going into overtime), but I'll be reading into the info you've provided in depth. I'm sure you've provided some nuggets.

kidney_bean · 02/13/2007, 07:40 AM

Hey, I just thought of something. Am I correct in assuming that the Kia Optima engine is built by Mitsubishi? I know this seems like a pretty retarded question, but since I'm actually in Korea, the land of the Kia, I'm just wondering if I might be able to pick up some of the parts here. If not, I'm thinking about having the Kia head and intake shipped out here so I can work on the P&P and have things ready to go when I get reunited with my car in a little under a year...fortunately, shipping here is about the same as it is within the 48 states since I have an APO address.

FlashBlueRS · 02/13/2007, 10:06 AM

This is a pic I took of the stock pistons at the very top of the stroke. I highly doubt there will be valve clearance problems with the EVO head on a stock bottom end.

Eclipsed01 · 02/13/2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Brody

Coil packs are under the black cover I believe.

you are correct sir.

Eclipsed01 · 02/13/2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBlueRS

This is a pic I took of the stock pistons at the very top of the stroke. I highly doubt there will be valve clearance problems with the EVO head on a stock bottom end.

why does it look like there is salt on the top of the piston?

FlashBlueRS · 02/13/2007, 12:44 PM

The flash possibly, I don't know. Why does it matter? We are talking about clearances not the condition of my old pistons.

malachi · 02/13/2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Also noone has swapped an evo head onto a stock block and the pistons in the stock block do not have valve reliefs so it's hard to say if it wouold even work. The kia head does have a larger combustion chamber it's 56cc the evo head is 43cc.

great, so i AM the first one to do this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBlueRS

This is a pic I took of the stock pistons at the very top of the stroke. I highly doubt there will be valve clearance problems with the EVO head on a stock bottom end.

thank you flash. do you have anymore pics like this?

FlashBlueRS · 02/13/2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malachi

thank you flash. do you have anymore pics like this?

I do, but they all look the same. I don't have any from a different angle.

milo111000 · 02/26/2007, 12:35 AM

anymore updates?? just passing through and i saw this.. i'll def keep an eye out for this.. good find fellas!!

4G64TT · 09/08/2007, 11:34 AM

bump 7 months... any progress...

spossey · 09/20/2007, 02:58 AM

i just read everyones post and was just wondering if any of you have seen the 2.6l stroker kit made for the 4g64 block with the evo head

lilbttrcup · 10/14/2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kng nothg

Speaking of the 4G64 Evo in D-sport... why is everyone worried about getting a kia head over the evo 8 head? That car made over 700+awp!

Seems to be a moot point. Only logical thing i could see is that the KIA head is cheaper.

Because lower compression makes it more boost happy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dlipse85

What would most likely be better then placeing an optima head on, is do a 4G63T head converstion. This can be done with minimal internal engine mods. All that really needs to be done is the extra holes to be filled. The 1G head will give you DOHC and more cc's, plus with a 1G or 2G ECU (for turbo knock) you can easliy turbo charge the 4G64 (4g63T stroker). :-) Then again...im no expert...

1g and 2g Engines are rotated 180 degrees from the 3g's, Evo 4-8 or 9 (not sure if the 9 works) fit on the 3g's. Evo 1-3 work for 1g and 2g but I dont think its just a direct swap

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidney_bean

Yeah, I tend to be long winded...sorry about that. Okay, so the valves and exhaust ports are the same...in that case the Kia head might be the route I take. I plan to P&P the head some myself anyways (including gasket matching at least the intake.) I'm still torn on how I want to build the bottom end, and whether or not I want to use FI or stay N/A...I guess those will come with time. I definitely want to swap to a DOHC setup though.

Just to ask a question though, a Kia head will work on a stock bottom end with no problem (if I understand it correctly), and you say that no one has swapped an EVO head onto a stock bottom end, but they both have the same valves (and I would assume the same valve geometry since you can install EVO cams in a Kia head), then why is it that there might be clearance issues with an EVO head on a stock block? I might be reading too much into it though...maybe its just that no one spends the money on an EVO head if they're running a stock bottom end. I understand we don't have valve reliefs with the stock pistons, but if the only difference would be the size of the combustion chamber, then geometrically speaking it should work...I guess that's where checking your clearances comes in. For those who have the Kia head with EVO cams, have you had any clearance issues with the stock pistons? Same goes for anyone running aftermarket cams...does anyone know what size cams we could get away with on our stock bottom end before we push a valve into the piston (I'm thinking of looking at the 264 or 272 cams that are out there).

The valves are at the top of the cylinder and because the chamber volume is less the valves start out closer to the pistons. Im not sure, but i think that the valves clear the pistons without any issues

I like the way you did this thread, but i wish you could finish it, i see that its been a loooooong time since you posted anything new

Dkeeler · 04/03/2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashBlueRS

exactly. Not a litte bit cheaper either. Got the head and every kia part i needed for $230 shipped.

so then why did someone state earlier that an kia head will be $1500.

i think some facts may be wrong

12/19/2006, 04:36 AM	#63 (permalink)
DNS-EN 1st 4cyl DOHC 3G Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Charlotte Vehicle: SPYDER GS TURBO Posts: 1,434	The "stock" cams are stock evo cams in flash's setup. __________________ 2003 eclipse gs spyder @ 15psi evo 8 Turbo 9.8 hotside FMIC fic 550 Injectors 3" downpipe Rear disc conversion Evo carbon fiber hood Innovate LM1 Wideband ECUFLASH Progrmmed E-01 Boost controller/Programmer Manual Trans Swap prothane motor mount kit Tein S Tech Springs Kyb AGX struts

12/19/2006, 03:09 PM	#67 (permalink)
kng nothg Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tamarac, Fl & Lynchburg, VA Vehicle: 2003 Eclipse GS-T Posts: 236	Speaking of the 4G64 Evo in D-sport... why is everyone worried about getting a kia head over the evo 8 head? That car made over 700+awp! Seems to be a moot point. Only logical thing i could see is that the KIA head is cheaper. Just waiting for my shit to get back from the machine shop. __________________ 2003 Eclipse GS-T 5 speed Fed-spec 14 psi

12/19/2006, 09:19 PM	#69 (permalink)
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Louisiana Vehicle: 2000 RS Posts: 1,752	right but i want to up the compression. __________________ stock RS. 16.1 in 1/4 mile car on diet, but still stock = 15.58 2006 FASTEST ECLIPSE RS/GS STOCK 2006 FASTEST ECLIPSE RS/GS N/A 2008 NEW RECORD, RS/GS N/A = 15.2 2009 DOHC + 10psi = 14.0 @ 101.89 MPH 2009 DOHC + 15psi = 13.3 @ 108 MPH

12/22/2006, 09:14 AM	#71 (permalink)
malachi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Louisiana Vehicle: 2000 RS Posts: 1,752	im ready to start shoping! anyone else to that point? __________________ stock RS. 16.1 in 1/4 mile car on diet, but still stock = 15.58 2006 FASTEST ECLIPSE RS/GS STOCK 2006 FASTEST ECLIPSE RS/GS N/A 2008 NEW RECORD, RS/GS N/A = 15.2 2009 DOHC + 10psi = 14.0 @ 101.89 MPH 2009 DOHC + 15psi = 13.3 @ 108 MPH

01/03/2007, 11:56 AM	#74 (permalink)
00TampaBlueGS imiTatum Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Denver, CO Vehicle: 2000 Eclipse GS 5-spd. Posts: 4,369	Just got back from holiday vacation, where I did little to no research. My studies will continue, though. I was thinking I'd post some pics for reference. EDIT: Here are a couple from that Evo 2.3L rebuild I linked on the first page. > ( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313 ) 1. Evo VIII bottom end & head gasket. The greatest (only?) difference in this block vs. my 4g64 is a shorter stroke. 2. Here's a top view of the Evo head on that block with only the cams/ cam gears installed. What's missing, I believe, are the rockers, lifter springs, and.... valves themselves? Lots more pics of the Evo head can be found in the Photobucket link balla4880 provided in his 2005 thread in the FI/Nitrous section. ( My New Project ) One pic in particular raised a question for me. Does the design of the evo head use a coil-over-plug design similar to the 4g64? I see no holes in the valve cover! (aside from the one for the oil cap) ^From whence does the signal come en route to the combustion chamber?!? Anyone else have some interesting or pertinent questions or discoveries? Adrian, any research sources you'd like to share? Last edited by 00TampaBlueGS; 01/07/2007 at 05:22 PM.

12/18/2006, 09:46 PM	#61 (permalink)
jjgrappler Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 319	Also correct me if I am missing somethign here but to build the internals what should be included? I know you want to upgrade the pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft. Am I missing anything? Would you want the overbore pistons? I really need to look into compression ratios and such.

12/19/2006, 06:28 AM	#64 (permalink)
jjgrappler Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 319	I am new as well. I would like to run boost, but I want the block to be able to handle it. I kno in stock form our block os strong, but it won't hurt to strengthen then internals. What would installing a 4g63 crankshaft do in our cars? It acrs like a stroker I heard but what does that accomplins? Is it better for N/A or FI?

12/19/2006, 09:00 AM	#66 (permalink)
FlashBlueRS Zero Resistance, LLC Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Vehicle: 02 DOHC Eclipse RS Posts: 1,877	The only things Kia in my car are the head itself, thermostat housing, thermostat and valve cover. Everything else is EVO8. This thread hurts my head.

12/22/2006, 09:22 AM	#72 (permalink)
jjgrappler Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 319	Me pretty much

01/03/2007, 11:51 AM	#73 (permalink)
adrian15 Mac&Chesse is good!! Join Date: May 2006 Location: corpus christi Vehicle: 2003 GS Posts: 1,618	So Tampa hows the progress coming along?

01/22/2007, 08:29 AM	#77 (permalink)
goosey2099 4G64 5SPD/TURBO Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NY Vehicle: 2001 Galant Posts: 366	lol __________________ 4G64 5 SPEED MY 5 SPEED - MY TURBO BUILD - MY CARPUTER - MY CAR

01/31/2007, 10:46 AM	#78 (permalink)
Dlipse85 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ohio, Us Vehicle: 2003 Eclipse GS Posts: 3	What would most likely be better then placeing an optima head on, is do a 4G63T head converstion. This can be done with minimal internal engine mods. All that really needs to be done is the extra holes to be filled. The 1G head will give you DOHC and more cc's, plus with a 1G or 2G ECU (for turbo knock) you can easliy turbo charge the 4G64 (4g63T stroker). :-) Then again...im no expert...

01/31/2007, 11:25 AM	#79 (permalink)
jjgrappler Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 319	It's been mentioned before but it sits differently in the engine then ours.

02/01/2007, 07:31 AM	#81 (permalink)
00TampaBlueGS imiTatum Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Denver, CO Vehicle: 2000 Eclipse GS 5-spd. Posts: 4,369	(another) EVO BUILD! Some of the folks on Evolutionm.com really know their $#!7 when it comes to engine building! The following thread illustrates one option when pairing our 4g64 block with a evo (or optima) head: "4g64 2.1L Build Up" -Essentially, what he's done is DESTROKE the 4g64 block using the (shorter stroke) crankshaft from a 4g63. The pictures on the first page are of just the block, crank, and pistons... not the head. The discussion, however, touches on a lot of issues with the complete pairing. I'm currently reading through this 8 page thread (now on page 5), and I'm finding quite a bit of food for thought. I invite anybody interested in this to join me in soaking up more knowledge. ...Some will be review for those who've followed my research thus far and have paid attention. Last edited by 00TampaBlueGS; 02/14/2007 at 01:34 AM. Reason: HTML link(s)

02/13/2007, 02:07 AM	#82 (permalink)
kidney_bean Dover White Pearl RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Charleston, SC Vehicle: 2003 RS Sporty Posts: 1,691	I hope this doesn't come off as sounding like I'm revisting areas that have already been discussed, but I figured I'd add my two cents since they may help people with deciding things such as whether to use the Optima head or the EVO head. To start out, while I may be newer than some to Club3G, as well as to the Eclipse iteself, I'm not new to the performance side of automobiles. Not to boast (but to explain where some of my knowledge has come from), I graduated 2nd in my class from Universal Technical Institute (UTI) in Phoenix, AZ with the certified auto & diesel course. After that, I worked in the automotive industry for a while (both working on cars and forklifts), followed by 4 years as a mechanic in the Air Force. I'm still in the Air Force but changed jobs a few years back and now pursue this simply as a hobby. On to the topic. Some have asked what would be better between the higher compression from the EVO head or the lower compression from the Optima head. The answer lies in what you are planning to build your engine (and car) for. With higher compression, the engine becomes more efficient and is able produce more power through a more efficient burn of the fuel. This directly translates into more power to the flywheel. This practice has been used for years with the muscle car crowd, and is down to a science in the arena. With higher compression, you must take both pre-ignition and detonation into consideration. Pre-ignition is when the fuel ignites before spark plug fires, while detonation is an uncontrolled burning (actually a violent explosion) of the fuel. Usually, higher octane fuel is required when the compression gets too high, but many engines today have safely run 10:1 compression with mid-grade, and sometimes low-grade (87 octane) gasoline. In a naturally aspirated context, high compression is a great way to increase the power output of an engine, as well as harness more potential from additional modifications. For forced induction applications, a lower compression is often desireable to reduce the possibility of pre-ignition and detonation...this is where the Optima head would come into play. In a sense, both raising the compression of a naturally aspirated engine, or utilizing forced induction on a low compression engine, are methods used to compress more of a volumetric quantitiy of air within the confines of the engine used...forced induction just does this to a much greater extent. For those of you running a naturally aspirated engine who may want to switch to forced induction down the road, I have a third alternative for you 9as some of you may have already considered). For the short term, you can utilize the EVO head (if you're willing to pay the extra money) which will increase your static compression, and enjoy the increased power without concern for making improvements to your bottom end. When it comes time to add forced induction, you can rebuild the bottom end with dished pistons, which will increase the volumetric size of the combustion chamber (below the head gasket) and safely and efficiently lower your compression. I have not yet checked into the availability of such pistons for our engine, but from past experience you can simply contact any high-end piston manufacturer (I have had good luck with Arias in the past) and have them make a custom set of pistons with any features you desire. The price really shouldn't be too much more than a typical set (I was quoted about $100 each for 2.4L Stratus pistons about 8 years ago from Arias). This way, you could enjoy the increased compression now (while you're naturally aspirated), and reap the efficiency when you move to forced induction. As for the question of how Flash was able to achieve increased power with the use of stock (EVO) cams, here's a little more explanation. As Tampa pointed out, the camshafts themselves are not opening and closing, but they directly control the opening and closing of the valves, which in turn allow the unburnt air/fuel mixture to enter the combustion chamber, and burnt exhaust gasses to be expelled. I don't have the camshaft specifications for our stock cam, or the stock EVO cam, but I think I can make an educated assumption. The cams in the EVO setup probably utilize a different duration, lift, and possibly centerline that is tailored more towards producing power in the upper RPM spectrum than the lower. Our engine, on the other hand, probably is designed to produce more power in the lower RPM spectrum since that is where most average drivers spend their time with regards to normal street driving. By increasing the duration (how long the valve is open for) the cam can let a greater quantity of air move in and out of the cylinder. Increasing the lift does much the same thing, but without respect to rotation of the crankshaft. Valve centerline is the relation between the center of the intake lobe and the center of the exhaust lobe (not adjustable on a SOHC, but it is adjustable on a DOHC). By using charachteristics that would allow for an increase in the amount of air/fuel that can physically enter the engine (by increasing the duration and lift), an engine will make more power at the upper RPMs but seem to make less at lower RPMs (which is what Flash reported in his post). This is also the reason that many "race" cams are listed as not being for street use...the intended powerband is above what is required for normal street driving, but great for high-RPM racing. Although many people have utilize high-lift/duration cams on the street, there is usually a loss of what the average person would consider to be "streetability" of the engine. Another point which I have not yet looked into, but maybe someone can shed some light on, is that I assume that in addition to a smaller combustion chamber, the EVO head might benefit from more efficient intake and exhaust ports. I'm not sure if anyone has compared this aspect of the two heads yet, but if the EVO head has larger and more efficient ports, then an even greater potential for power production could be achieved. Tampa, sorry if some of this was a little off topic, but I have recently begun reading up on performing this swap and really like the focus you have maintained here...I just wanted to explain a couple thoughts that had been brought up for those who were wondering. Hopefully this was some use to those who take the time to read through it. __________________ Current Mods Injen CAI CMF Header/Hi-Flow Cat Invidia N1 Cat-Back 13" LS1/Cobra Brakes KYB AGX/TEIN S-Techs ST Rear Sway Bar GT Front Strut Bar 18" Black Racing Pro N-1 Wheels Sonar Projectors w/4300K HID Sportronic Conversion AVIC D3/XM Radio/NavTraffic Black TYC Tails GT Side Skirts Ready To Install RMDSM Front Sway Bar Firm front; poly rear mounts 5pc Black Grillecraft

02/13/2007, 05:59 AM	#85 (permalink)
00TampaBlueGS imiTatum Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Denver, CO Vehicle: 2000 Eclipse GS 5-spd. Posts: 4,369	I'm no stranger to long-windedness, but I think I may have just been outdone!! Seriously, I appreciate your taking the time to add your own take on things to this thread. I haven't the time to read it all at the moment (work doesn;t want me going into overtime), but I'll be reading into the info you've provided in depth. I'm sure you've provided some nuggets. __________________ My Ride, gradually evolving... My ambitious "Eclipsed(EVO)" plans for my GS: PHASE 1 -DOHC research__(n00bish fumblings) First documented AWD 3G_(local inspiration) messing w/ Evo 8 gear____(turbo options) See where I'm going with this? ...right back into debt.

02/13/2007, 07:40 AM	#86 (permalink)
kidney_bean Dover White Pearl RS Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Charleston, SC Vehicle: 2003 RS Sporty Posts: 1,691	Hey, I just thought of something. Am I correct in assuming that the Kia Optima engine is built by Mitsubishi? I know this seems like a pretty retarded question, but since I'm actually in Korea, the land of the Kia, I'm just wondering if I might be able to pick up some of the parts here. If not, I'm thinking about having the Kia head and intake shipped out here so I can work on the P&P and have things ready to go when I get reunited with my car in a little under a year...fortunately, shipping here is about the same as it is within the 48 states since I have an APO address. __________________ Current Mods Injen CAI CMF Header/Hi-Flow Cat Invidia N1 Cat-Back 13" LS1/Cobra Brakes KYB AGX/TEIN S-Techs ST Rear Sway Bar GT Front Strut Bar 18" Black Racing Pro N-1 Wheels Sonar Projectors w/4300K HID Sportronic Conversion AVIC D3/XM Radio/NavTraffic Black TYC Tails GT Side Skirts Ready To Install RMDSM Front Sway Bar Firm front; poly rear mounts 5pc Black Grillecraft

02/13/2007, 10:06 AM	#87 (permalink)
FlashBlueRS Zero Resistance, LLC Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Vehicle: 02 DOHC Eclipse RS Posts: 1,877	This is a pic I took of the stock pistons at the very top of the stroke. I highly doubt there will be valve clearance problems with the EVO head on a stock bottom end.

02/13/2007, 12:44 PM	#90 (permalink)
FlashBlueRS Zero Resistance, LLC Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Vehicle: 02 DOHC Eclipse RS Posts: 1,877	The flash possibly, I don't know. Why does it matter? We are talking about clearances not the condition of my old pistons. Last edited by FlashBlueRS; 02/13/2007 at 12:46 PM.

02/26/2007, 12:35 AM	#93 (permalink)
milo111000 Gman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Long beach/ Guam Vehicle: 99 Galant es Posts: 42	anymore updates?? just passing through and i saw this.. i'll def keep an eye out for this.. good find fellas!! __________________

09/08/2007, 11:34 AM	#94 (permalink)
4G64TT I Deliver Porsches Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Indpls, IN Posts: 1,552	bump 7 months... any progress...

09/20/2007, 02:58 AM	#95 (permalink)
spossey Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29	i just read everyones post and was just wondering if any of you have seen the 2.6l stroker kit made for the 4g64 block with the evo head Last edited by spossey; 09/20/2007 at 03:00 AM.