TampaBlue's "Eclipsed(EVO)" project.-Phase 1/DOHC research

[00TampaBlueGS]

I'm beginning some pretty intesive research on a DOHC head swap on my 4g64.
I've been a member of this site since March of this year (2006), shortly after buying my car. In that time I've read many things about how well this engine handles boost in its stock form, the fact that it has pretty tough (forged steel?) internal components, blah, blah, blah.

On thing has continued to intrigue me, though: The possibility of swapping my head for that of an Evo or even (I've heard) a Kia Optima!?
This would correct what I see as a pretty grevious error on the part of Mitsubishi Motors...
They gave the 3g platform a V6 as their "performance" engine, phasing out the DOHC 4g63 variants and sticking us 4-bangers with an "economy" single-cam 4g64!....

I'm now considering correcting this error. I know it's been done before by a few of our still-active members, so I'm hoping for their guidance through my next 10-12 months of research.
I'm very new to the "car hobby", but I'm spreading myself over a wide number of websites and reading material now with the intent to learn as much as I can about all the components involved.
I also plan to go FI a little futher down the line, but for now I'm using this thread (and this site) to "log" my research and findings, outsourcing and referencing my research for others to see.
I'm also hoping to get some measure of help from other members. However, I've purposely started this thread during this site's less active period!! I'm hoping to avoid too many less informed "comments from the peanut gallery". I'd like this thread to serve, as much as possible, as a concise and informative reference for building on the power of the 4g64.

I'm considering the option of "building" the engine from the crank up, though I'll likely just start with the head swap. I've heard there's a "six bolt" as well as a "seven bolt" variant, though I may be misinformed. Like I said, I'm not entirely familiar with what's involved, but I'm giving myself a full year to learn.
Anyone want to help? I could sure use some input on some of the specifics involved/parts needed....from someone who's done a similar build!
(you know who you are)

[00TampaBlueGS]

The first site I decided to join in my quest for knowledge. Their vBulletin based forum bears a lot of similarities to ours, so I immediately felt somewhat "at home". I planned to just build my posts in hopes of finding a suitable EVO head for sale(I believe it's the VIII and IX that synchs up? ), but I found myself impressed with the way the site was run. Also, those Evo guys know their stuff!! A week into exploring, I decided to introduce myself and announce my intentions much like I did in this post.
Go check it out, as I've gotten some interesting response so far and I could use some help "decoding" some of the advice given! post 11, 13, &14 in particular...
( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=234396 )

I also ran across an amazingly detailed teardown of a 2.3L 4g63.... I plan to hound that threads author a bit to see what I can learn from him.
He seems friendly enough, and we have the same first name!
( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313 )



I've got a couple other sites in my .... sights, including a couple DSM boards and... well, I'll likely join up on the "other site" just to see what sort of info might be floating around there.
Again, any suggestions are more than welcome!
... Eclipseforum.com
... GalantCenter.com
... hmmm

[gst4g64]

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

post 11, 13, &14 in particular...

11:

Originally Posted by PAPITOSMURFEVO8

from what i found the evoeclipse is alive the brakes mount up so the rims mount up so i believe you can mate the whole head set up to 4g64

He is saying that the Eclipse can use the Evolution's Brembo Setup and the Evolution's Wheels. What this has to do with the head bolting up, I but we already know that all of the above can be done.

13:

Originally Posted by PAPITOSMURFEVO8

the 2ng gen eclipse is a close match only evo comes with a better turbo and tranny should bolt in if you have a awd eclipse and bigger cams and better internal parts in the block or you can put in a 2.4 evo engine

Before I go any further, I would like to advise you not to take too much advice from this guy. I believe he is trying to say both the evo and gsx are awd and have a 4g63. I really don't know what he is talking about, lol. Also you can let him know that the evo has a 2.0. Actually, I think he believes you have a 2G and wants you to use the "better turbo and tranny" of the evo. It also looks like he is telling you to beef up your engine internals or switch it with the evos.
14:

Originally Posted by KOEvo

I believe all stoker Evo's use at least part of the 4g64's. It is a nearly identical motor to the 4g63, and a lot of the same parts are interchangable.

This being said, you have a ton of options; and you can pretty much duplicate any stoker Evo setup you see on here.

Though i'm not sure how correct this is, but i think the 4g63 crank in the 4g64 block makes a 2.1L destroked engine (these suckers usually rev past 10k); and i think the 4g64 crank in the 4g63 block is the 2.3L stoker that everyone runs. (Might be the other way around, but either way, you get the point.)

It sounds like cost wise, the 2.1L stoker is best for you, being you can use your current block; though you need to source a 4g63 crank, 2.1L pistons and rods, and what ever else (see SlowBoyRacing). This is a great setup though, as Curt Brown used this motor to run 10's in an Evo on the stock turbo (fastest stock turbo record holder to this day). Plus, who doesn't want to rev past 10k?

Anyway, i think you made a good choice compared to the V6 model, and i have to admit that i would do the same thing, because of the potential.

Good Luck!

He is suggesting that you use an evo crank to destroke your engine down to 2.1L. I don't think this would allow you to rev to 10k with the sohc head though. The evo owners can just swap in our crank to get a 2.3L stroker motor. They don't need to use our entire block as most of our +.4L are from increased stroke not bore.

I think you just need to follow Napalm, Balla, and Flash. It is great to broaden your horizons when researching, but alot of these people may not be knowledgeable about cars, let alone our platform.

I could be completely wrong with me translations, so if anyone wants to correct me feel free.

[gst4g64]

As far as your project goes, I believe Flash was able to swap heads without using a standalone and has a N/A eclipse. He is probably your best source for information.

You will have to modify your current exhaust manifold &/or piping to mate up with the evo head. I also suggest that you use an AEM EMS.

As far as saying our block can handle boost fairly well, I would also advise you to build the entire engine or at least use forged pistons. It doesn't make sense to swap the head and leave the block stock imo.

Good Luck, look forward to seeing your progress.

[00TampaBlueGS]

^^ Thanks a lot for some very insightful info!

Don't worry, I'm taking every piece of advice I get from "non-Eclipse boards" with a (pretty large) grain of salt. I realize that "PAPITOSMURF" fella may be a bit confused as to what I have and what I'm wanting to do with it.

Since I don't plan on tackling this project until about a year or or so down the road....
I'm mostly just "broadening my horizons", as you put it.
In fact, here's what I'm currently reading just as a means of going back to basics:
.|
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\/
(next post)

[00TampaBlueGS]

This site has some great write-ups on the mechanics of an engine. A lot of it is a review.. (even for a n00b like myself), but I think it's recommended reading for anyone who wants to know more about the basic workings of an internal combustion engine!
Basic introduction is divided into FOUR MAIN SECTIONS of interest:
Introduction to How Car Engines Work-- A very basic intro. It may even seem patronizing to some of the people who find themselves in this section of Club3g...
Cylinders, Displacement and Other Engine Parts-- starts with the three basic cylinder arrangements in automotive engines, covers displacement, then goes into other parts that translates the engine's energy. wraps with "what can go wrong"
Valve Trains and Systems-- starts to get interesting here as well as more relevant to my project. also includes a link to another author's article on "How Camshafts Work"...hmmm
Producing More Power-- YESSss! ... haven't read into it yet, but seems to be a link-heavy discussion on upgrading an engine. (the basics)
followed by a FIFTH PAGE:
Lots More Information-- their standard list of related HSW articles...

This whole site is a great reference tool. I recommend even visiting the "Science Stuff" section for some of the technicalities! ..... (I'm such a geek)

[4G64TT]

you can do the optima head swap...
its whats im doing... i have the head and an extra block...
just gotta save more for the performance parts, porting blah blah blah...
flashbluers has the parts list
and i have them saved as WORD and EXCEL files..

[jjgrappler]

Ok so from what I understand you swap in EVO cams and cam gears. Bolt up a turbo and then get it tuned. Now what kind of internals do you use for this? Do we then use EVo internals? Like I said there is a good feature in D-Sport this month about an EVo with a 4g64 block.

[gst4g64]

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Ok so from what I understand you swap in EVO cams and cam gears. Bolt up a turbo and then get it tuned. Now what kind of internals do you use for this? Do we then use EVo internals? Like I said there is a good feature in D-Sport this month about an EVo with a 4g64 block.

You use the entire evo head. You upgrade the block using aftermarket 4G64 parts. You could upgrade the head too, using aftermarket evo parts, it all depends on how much you are willing to spend. In order to tune it, I would use a standalone.

Flash already has a great writeup on how to do this and what is needed, and Napalm, Balla, and DNS-EN have all already done the dohc conversion.

Any of them would be the best to ask questions to, but I don't know if you want to try and discuss it with them unless you are 100% positive you are doing this, and are ready to begin.

[00TampaBlueGS]

Okay, HERE is Flashblue's thread containing the DOHC Head Swap Parts List, and a bit of discussion... (mostly just this Forum's regulars taking digs at one-another)

Here's the profile for FlashBlueRS, from which you can check into his other posts..... just don't bug the guy with n00b Q's until you've read into things a bit.
Honestly, I don't know how this escaped me before now. I've done my fair share of Searching, including checking posts by those I know have done this....
I guess I'd focused on the apparent "pioneer", DNS-EN.(Mr. "1st 4cyl DOHC 3g" himself)
Thanks again for steering me right, gst4g64!!
I'll emphasize that all three above members can and have been a great resource to our community, so please read their posts before burying them in questions they've likely posted answers to!


I'm going to continue compiling data in this thread, regardless of all the other threads showing how "it's already been done".
Just consider this my contribution and best attempt at "merging" all relevant threads and info I can find... without actually having the abilities a Moderator would have in doing so!
I'm not ready to take on this project quite yet, so I'll log my research as much as possible....... even to the most basic of information and its sources.

......now I've got to , so more notes and links will follow later.

EDIT: One more link before I get to bed for a bit.
____/\ That's actually one of Flash's posts from the first thread linked in THIS post, but I thought I should give it some emphasis.

I'd read some of that info he linked before, though it was a bit over my head at the time.... thus the research and my need to "get back to basics"!

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

I guess I'd focused on the apparent "pioneer", DNS-EN.(Mr. "1st 4cyl DOHC 3g" himself)

Thanks again you can keep up with my upgrade thread if you would like I'm sure I'll run into something interesting. If you meant to be condescending you'll have to do better than that.

http://club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78337

[jjgrappler]

haha thats kool guys. I was gonna use my income tax for headers and an exhaust but I def. wanna do the swap and turbo it.

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Thanks again you can keep up with my upgrade thread if you would like I'm sure I'll run into something interesting. If you meant to be condescending you'll have to do better than that.

http://club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78337

Thanks for the additional link! I'll definitely keep an eye on that, as I'm sure I could learn from your progress.

People seem to mis-read my tone quite often, so I guess I should explain that I wasn't meaning to be condescending in the least. I just figured that you were the most likely candidate to have some extensive write-ups, since you've advertised your pioneering spirit in your user tag... s'all.

[jjgrappler]

Well what parts are what for this swap? I kno about the head but do u then buy cams and cam gears for an EVO? Pistons, connecting rods, exhaust and intake manifolds? Where do they come from? 4g64 or EVO engine?

[buckethead]

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Well what parts are what for this swap? I kno about the head but do u then buy cams and cam gears for an EVO? Pistons, connecting rods, exhaust and intake manifolds? Where do they come from? 4g64 or EVO engine?

That was posted already. Just look up.

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

Okay, HERE is Flashblue's thread containing the DOHC Head Swap Parts List, and a bit of discussion... (mostly just this Forum's regulars taking digs at one-another)

[clappro33]

So does this head swap make your car illegal? Assuming you change your car registration to Modified. (That's for PA anyway...)

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by clappro33

So does this head swap make your car illegal? Assuming you change your car registration to Modified. (That's for PA anyway...)

That's actually a pretty good question, and brings a new consideration to bear.

However, the point of this thread is for me to share some of my research and encourage others interested in this option to do their own research!!
(using whichever of my sources they find useful)
I'm sure the above question can be better answered by investigating your local registry laws rather than asking random questions on an INTERNATIONAL forum.
_________________________________________________
Incase anyone's wondered why I haven't logged any new findings for a bit, it's because my current head is causing me some trouble.... so I've decided to put my research on hold until I get my car running well in its current SOHC state.

Until then, here's another LINK.
These are the specs for a stock 4g64. You may notice the "last update" was in.... 1999?!? This is because the 4g64 was first introduced in a SECOND GEN Eclipse Spyder. I should emphasize that this version was transversly mounted, meaning the belts and pullies face the driver's side fender.
Still, the base specs as listed should be the same, and that site has some other useful info.... like in the FAQ section.
( http://www.motorpowerinc.com/specs/4g64.html )

[jjgrappler]

Y would the car actually become illegal? I don't quite get why it would. I dont think swapping a different head on your engine would make it illegal, but I cannot say this for sure.

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Y would the car actually become illegal? I don't quite get why it would. I dont think swapping a different head on your engine would make it illegal, but I cannot say this for sure.

EXACTLY!

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

I'm sure the above question can be better answered by investigating your local registry laws rather than asking random questions on an INTERNATIONAL forum.

Now please discuss this elsewhere, if you must debate.... K?

[jjgrappler]

Ok very stupid question. The parts list for the evo head swap that was up here. Instead of buying say a stock evo 8 fuel rail and cams, just go ahead and buy aftermarket ones while your doing the swap?

[gst4g64]

Originally Posted by clappro33

So does this head swap make your car illegal? Assuming you change your car registration to Modified. (That's for PA anyway...)

I never even heard of this. Penndot just sends me a registration in the mail every year asking for $36, my insurance policy number, and an odometer reading. I am guessing you are saying it would possibly not pass inspection, unless you are registered as Modified (which I know nothing about). My car hasn't been inspected for a while :blush:.

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

Now please discuss this elsewhere, if you must debate.... K?

Sorry. Don't want to clutter up your thread, I am not sure if you read about Flash's concerns with the head upping the compression ration or if it is a thread you have linked here, but that is something you may want to take into consideration.

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Ok very stupid question. The parts list for the evo head swap that was up here. Instead of buying say a stock evo 8 fuel rail and cams, just go ahead and buy aftermarket ones while your doing the swap?

This looks to be stated as recommendation and not a question, but if you are asking if you can use aftermarket parts in place of oem parts, the answer is yes.

[DNS-EN]

It actually lowers the compression ratio a full point to 8.5 from 9.5 as it has a 56cc combustion chamber

[jjgrappler]

What do you want with a swap like this? Higher or lower compression? Whats the difference? What gains are there? I know nothing about engine compression. Its obviousely important because its talekd about alot on these threads.

[karacing]

lower compression is better for higher boost

[jjgrappler]

Whats the difference for the intake and exhaust duration on the cams? I have seen 272 and 264, whats gonna give you the best all around performance? Keep in mind with FI involved also.

[malachi]

1) so does the compression go up or down, or neither? how can you prove this?

2) would the CMF header bolt up?

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by malachi

1) so does the compression go up or down, or neither? how can you prove this?

2) would the CMF header bolt up?

It lowers the compression I know this because I had the machine shop take a needle and a piece of plexiglass and filled the chamber with fluid it took exactly 56cc to fill it up. The stock head has a 47cc chamber you do the math. And yes the cmf header will bolt up that is if you ever get the header lol.

[malachi]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

It lowers the compression I know this because I had the machine shop take a needle and a piece of plexiglass and filled the chamber with fluid it took exactly 56cc to fill it up. The stock head has a 47cc chamber you do the math. And yes the cmf header will bolt up that is if you ever get the header lol.

humm, lower compression, not a big + for N/A build up.

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by gst4g64

Sorry. Don't want to clutter up your thread, I am not sure if you read about Flash's concerns with the head upping the compression ration or if it is a thread you have linked here, but that is something you may want to take into consideration.

No worries about "cluttering up" my thread, as I understand this is an important consideration! I do find it interesting that his discussion has been carried over to here (I haven't checked for updates in FlashBlue's thread), but it's all useful info!

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

It actually lowers the compression ratio a full point to 8.5 from 9.5 as it has a 56cc combustion chamber

This is the Evo head, correct? I remember reading the Optima head had an even larger combustion chamber! ...?

Originally Posted by malachi

humm, lower compression, not a big + for N/A build up.

Very true, but it is a "+" for those looking to save at the pump!
(lower compression allows for lower octane, right?)
Also, this would mean those who want to add turbo (as I would eventually) would have a good low-comp. "base" to work from!

[DNS-EN]

Thats the optima head I was referring too evo head is 43cc I believe

[gst4g64]

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

No worries about "cluttering up" my thread, as I understand this is an important consideration!

I was referring to my response to registering a car as Modified in PA when I apologized for cluttering up the thread.

[matt_mcmhn]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Thats the optima head I was referring too evo head is 43cc I believe

so if I want higher compression I should get the evo head? that 43cc a pretty big difference from the 56cc optima head, what kind of compresion would that give?

[buckethead]

EVO head is 43cc and the Optima head is 56cc while stock SOHC is 47cc. So the EVO head would increase compression while the Optima head would lower compression. Correct me if I have mistaken any of the information in this thread.

[malachi]

i was wndering this, because flashblue said he felt an increase in power from the evo head VS a stage 2 cam. and i was trying to figure out how lowering compression gives you power. (na). but now i know it raised it.

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by malachi

i was wndering this, because flashblue said he felt an increase in power from the evo head VS a stage 2 cam. and i was trying to figure out how lowering compression gives you power. (na). but now i know it raised it.

The increase in power on flash's car is due to the cams and higher rev limit. His engine is at 8.5:1 compression ratio.

[CloudINC00]

I, myself am researching on a DOHC swap for my 3g. Keep us informed and updated on your project/research! eRep for you

[buckethead]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

It actually lowers the compression ratio a full point to 8.5 from 9.5 as it has a 56cc combustion chamber

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

It lowers the compression I know this because I had the machine shop take a needle and a piece of plexiglass and filled the chamber with fluid it took exactly 56cc to fill it up. The stock head has a 47cc chamber you do the math. And yes the cmf header will bolt up that is if you ever get the header lol.

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Thats the optima head I was referring too evo head is 43cc I believe

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

The increase in power on flash's car is due to the cams and higher rev limit. His engine is at 8.5:1 compression ratio.

Ok, now you are not making sense. Please explain. You said the Kia head is 56cc, the EVO head is 43cc, and the stock head is 47cc. Then with all that you say the Kia head is the one that is 8.5:1, but now the EVO head is the same compression ratio as the kia with it being much less in size. Some where the posts don't seem to click.

[matt_mcmhn]

Originally Posted by buckethead

Ok, now you are not making sense. Please explain. You said the Kia head is 56cc, the EVO head is 43cc, and the stock head is 47cc. Then with all that you say the Kia head is the one that is 8.5:1, but now the EVO head is the same compression ratio as the kia with it being much less in size. Some where the posts don't seem to click.

The 8.5:1 makes sense, because the stock (47cc) is 9.5 or 9.6:1. I dunno what he's talking about with the EVO head, that should be higher than stock

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by CloudINC00

I, myself am researching on a DOHC swap for my 3g. Keep us informed and updated on your project/research! eRep for you

Thanks!
Although I'm still soaking up knowledge on pretty much a daily basis, I took a bit of a break from actively seeking out new sources for research. This was due mostly to the issues I've been having with my 4g64 in its stock form. I'm pretty sure I've got it sorted out now, so look for more updates from me in the near future..... after this weekend's Mitsu meet I'm helping put together that is.

In the meantime, we now return you to your unscheduled {though welcome} program.
...the compression discussion that has found its way in here!!

[buckethead]

Originally Posted by matt_mcmhn

The 8.5:1 makes sense, because the stock (47cc) is 9.5 or 9.6:1. I dunno what he's talking about with the EVO head, that should be higher than stock

But he said the two DOHC options are the same ending displacement while one is much larger than stock and the other is smaller than stock. How can two different size items be the same ending result when compared to stock?

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by buckethead

But he said the two DOHC options are the same ending displacement while one is much larger than stock and the other is smaller than stock. How can two different size items be the same ending result when compared to stock?

Evidently your having a problem with reading comprehension. The kia dohc has a 56cc chamber which is larger than the stock 47cc head. When changing to the kia dohc you lose 1 full point in compression because the chamber is larger and your compressing less air on each stroke. The evo head is 43cc which would change the 9.5:1 to around 10:1. You guys got it now?

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Evidently your having a problem with reading comprehension. The kia dohc has a 56cc chamber which is larger than the stock 47cc head. When changing to the kia dohc you lose 1 full point in compression because the chamber is larger and your compressing less air on each stroke. The evo head is 43cc which would change the 9.5:1 to around 10:1. You guys got it now?

Got it.
Stock head = 47cc
Kia head = 56cc (LOWER comp., better for FI)
Evo head = 43cc (HIGHER comp., better for NA)

Evo < stock < Kia

I'd gathered as much myself, but it's good to hear it confirmed.
Now my decision lies in whether to raise my compression with the {more expensive} Evo swap, or get the cheaper alternative and be better prepared for the turbo I'd like to add at a later time. hmmmm....

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by gst4g64

As far as your project goes, I believe Flash was able to swap heads without using a standalone and has a N/A eclipse. He is probably your best source for information.

You will have to modify your current exhaust manifold &/or piping to mate up with the evo head. I also suggest that you use an AEM EMS.

As far as saying our block can handle boost fairly well, I would also advise you to build the entire engine or at least use forged pistons. It doesn't make sense to swap the head and leave the block stock imo.

Good Luck, look forward to seeing your progress.

Why do people who have never done anything themselves give others bad advice? Don't listen to this bunch unless you want to waste alot of money.

[gst4g64]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Why do people who have never done anything themselves give others bad advice? Don't listen to this bunch unless you want to waste alot of money.

What is done to my car that I have ever had anyone else do? Mounting/Balancing tires and state and emissions inspections that is about it. If you are saying I have never done the head swap that is true.

You would recommend he keeps the block stock and just swap heads?

You think it would be better to use the reflash and swap ecu and immobilizer instead of going with a standalone?

Are you saying that his stock exhaust/manifold etc will bolt right up to the evo head without any issues?

What gives you the impression I have never done anything myself?

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

Why do people who have never done anything themselves give others bad advice? Don't listen to this bunch unless you want to waste alot of money.

I'm a bit confused by this statement as well. Where specifically does the money-wasting "bad advice" lie in what he had to say?
Are you suggesting I keep stock internals? I'm thinking I may for the most part, anyway, since I don't expect to have that hefty a budget for this project.
Would a standalone be an unecessarily expensive option for engine management/tuning? I'm certain I'll need to get rid of my Fed. Spec. ECU ...unless I'm able to piggyback it effectively. Although, I'd rather not try to just "fool" a stubborn processor. I know you're using the Evo's ECU, correct? Is this what you'd suggest?
Please, elaborate a bit if you feel I'm being led astray...

For better or worse, gst 4g64 has offered up the most advice/tips since I began my research. As I've said, though, I'm not jumping headlong into this without sorting fact from fiction, myth from logic, and speculation from experience.

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by gst4g64

What is done to my car that I have ever had anyone else do? Mounting/Balancing tires and state and emissions inspections that is about it. If you are saying I have never done the head swap that is true.

You would recommend he keeps the block stock and just swap heads?

Depends on the desired boost level.

Originally Posted by gst4g64

You think it would be better to use the reflash and swap ecu and immobilizer instead of going with a standalone?

Depends on state inspections or not. I just can't see spending $1300 more for an aem when I can do the same thing with ecuflash.

Originally Posted by gst4g64

Are you saying that his stock exhaust/manifold etc will bolt right up to the evo head without any issues?

Mine did due to the stock flexable section that we have It's about 1/2" difference in where the manifold sits.

Originally Posted by gst4g64

What gives you the impression I have never done anything myself?

That would be because the things your giving advice about you have never done yourself I'm not trying to give you shit but your giving some bad advice.

[CloudINC00]

Thanks Tampa for the posts. I was close to buying an EVO head but now I want the KIA head.

[jjgrappler]

Here's a stupid question that I did not see the answer for. When I do this head swap I kno I buy the cams and such for an EVO and the internals for a 4g64, but what kind of turbo kit would I buy? An EVO or a 3g turbo kit? I was gonna go N/A but y not slap on a snail and get some boost going.

[00TampaBlueGS]

"slapping on a snail" is a possibility I'm wrestling with as well.
Personally, I'd rather cement my understanding of the Naturally Aspirated mechanics of the twin-cam'd 4g64 before tackling the complexities of turbo and the additional tuning headaches that accompany it. I'm sure I'll eventually reach that phase, but for now I'm focusing my research on the DOHC swap and its application in the NA form... The F/I section's a whole new world.

Honestly though, it worries me that you and so many others seem to be simplifying this engine modifying process to such a large degree. Some of your posts show a pretty good understanding of what's involved, while others....
I'm hoping everyone reading my thread and seriously considering this swap is taking their time -as I am- to be sure they understand what's involved, else we might be seeing quite a few blown engines in the near future.

[jjgrappler]

Are you telling me that I'm taking the whole process lightly? I've been trying to research myself as well, I'm just asking a question. For the amount of money I'm going to be putting into this engine swap I wanna just do it all at once. What does my previous question have to do with my knowledge on the head swap? I simply asked that when you accomplish the head swap, do you buy a turbo kit for a 4g64 or an EVO mainly for the intercooler piping and such.

[ProjectRS]

Your question really doesn't mean anything. There is no set turbo kit for either car/motor.

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by buckethead

Ok, now you are not making sense. Please explain. You said the Kia head is 56cc, the EVO head is 43cc, and the stock head is 47cc. Then with all that you say the Kia head is the one that is 8.5:1, but now the EVO head is the same compression ratio as the kia with it being much less in size. Some where the posts don't seem to click.

In re-reading the posts, I think I found the culprit. The Louisiana cocknozzle (Malachi) incorrectly stated that Flash has an EVO head installed. He doesn't. It's an Optima head, and it's LOWERED his compression to 8.5 : 1.

Originally Posted by jjgrappler

Are you telling me that I'm taking the whole process lightly? I've been trying to research myself as well, I'm just asking a question. For the amount of money I'm going to be putting into this engine swap I wanna just do it all at once. What does my previous question have to do with my knowledge on the head swap? I simply asked that when you accomplish the head swap, do you buy a turbo kit for a 4g64 or an EVO mainly for the intercooler piping and such.

jjgrappler -
If you have something to add with regards to this head swap, please do. I'm sure your concurrent research will/has turned up some info that would be useful to my project's current "phase", that being (as already stated) a naturally aspirated DOHC 4g64.

So far, your posts in my thread have seemed rather ill-informed and hasty, and haven't shown much pre-disposition to independent research. By in large, they've tended to be what you yourself have deemed "stupid questions"....

You recently referred to the complex and involved tuning procedure of Forced Induction as "slap on a snail and get some boost going". You'll forgive me if I don't stand in awe of your deep understanding of engine mechanics.

Now, your previous question (about which turbo kit you'd use) had NOTHING to do with your knowledge of the head swap. That was kind of my point. I'm researching this head swap and the related engineering (mechanical & electronic) specifics. That's why I created this thread.
If you have questions regarding Forced Induction, I provided a link to that section above. There's a reason it has it's own section. Aside from that, I've also provided links to Member profiles/threads that have experience with this swap (both F/I & N/A).
.........................................
Lastly, the "amount of money" one is looking to spend on a project is NEVER a valid excuse for rushing into things one doesn't fully understand.
One of the foremost guidelines for any sort of engine work is to stick to ONE thing at a time, otherwise you'll be harder pressed to find the source of any problem you may -and most likely WILL- encounter. I'm just encouraging you and others to "KISS", Keep It Simple Stupid....

[malachi]

[QUOTE=00TampaBlueGS;1900505]In re-reading the posts, I think I found the culprit. The Louisiana cocknozzle (Malachi) incorrectly stated that Flash has an EVO head installed. He doesn't. It's an Optima head, and it's LOWERED his compression to 8.5 : 1.
[QUOTE]

if i incorrectly stated that, then i am sorry. in another post flashblueRS stated that when he did the DOHC swap he noticed a bigger gain then with a stage II cam, therefor i assumed he did the EVO head that ups the compression, adding HP, rather than the Kia head that lowers compression.

[00TampaBlueGS]

^ I read where he made that claim in your thread. I'm a bit confused on that as well. DNS-EN seems to believe the extra power is from upgraded cams, but I think Flash only had a Stage II cam in the stock SOHC head...

Hey, are you anywhere near Baton Rouge, BTW? I'm heading back to LA in a week to visit friends and family, and I'm always down for meeting fellow Mitsu enthusiasts! PM me.

[malachi]

you'd want to meet up with a Louisiana cocknozzle? LOL

id be down for that, im about an hour from BR. i get my car dynoed in port alen.

and yes i belive your right, he put the stage II in the SOHC.=, because thats what i wantted to do

[DNS-EN]

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

^ I read where he made that claim in your thread. I'm a bit confused on that as well. DNS-EN seems to believe the extra power is from upgraded cams, but I think Flash only had a Stage II cam in the stock SOHC head...

Hey, are you anywhere near Baton Rouge, BTW? I'm heading back to LA in a week to visit friends and family, and I'm always down for meeting fellow Mitsu enthusiasts! PM me.

It's all very simple yet you confuse the hell out of things. Higher rev limit with cams that stay open longer = more power than stock. I'll let you know when I finish my project

[00TampaBlueGS]

Originally Posted by DNS-EN

It's all very simple yet you confuse the hell out of things. Higher rev limit with cams that stay open longer = more power than stock. I'll let you know when I finish my project

I tend to be long-winded and overexplain things... Guilty as charged! (if that's what you're pointing out).
Honestly, I think more confusion can and HAS -as in the case of the comp. discussion- come from OVERSIMPLIFYING THINGS! Not everyone, myself included, has the deep understanding of engine mechanics that you do......

Point was, he's still got stock cams in that kia head to the best of our knowledge.
Higher rev limit? Sure, that makes sense. I think Flash was claiming more torque throughout his power band, though....
Yes, I'm still learning the basics of How Camshafts Work, but cams (the shaft OR lobe) don't "stay open".... let me quote from the article I just linked:

The key parts of any camshaft are the lobes. As the camshaft spins, the lobes open and close the intake and exhaust valves in time with the motion of the piston. It turns out that there is a direct relationship between the shape of the cam lobes and the way the engine performs in different speed ranges.

Technically, wouldnn't it be the valves that do the opening?
...Can you see how newbies who haven't done their research might get confused? Personally, I still don't see how lowering compression and keeping a regular cam lobe profile could do anything but cause a LOSS in overall power! I'm still missing something, aren't I?
I suck.

I've no doubt your project will be complete long before I even start sourcing necessary parts. Your rev limit will be through the ROOF, as I understand it. You're destroking the engine!

I'm taking my time, personally. Why? SIMPLE! I'm broke and ignorant.

I'm working on educating myself, though. I hope others are learning alongside me.

[buckethead]

Originally Posted by 00TampaBlueGS

I'm working on educating myself, though. I hope others are learning alongside me.

I know I've been reading, researching, and subscribing to threads for 2 years now. I have 186 good informative threads on my list. I started researching just before Napalm did his first build thread.

[malachi]

can we start a thread for the people who are going to do a head swap. not a discussion, but one for people to talk about getting parts. not alot of post. just like, "hey i need this, where can i get it"

[jjgrappler]

I concur and maybe with all the possibilities that you can do with this swap. As I am thinkin right now about putting a 4g63 crankshaft into the block to have a stroker so to speak