Why "racing seats" are NOT safe in a street car using aftermarket safety equipment

[XwP1ayawX]

After doing a crapton of research and checking out the forums, I've found some pretty horrifying things. The BEST of all of it was summed up by this guy. This should be stickied.

seat belt harness bar ?????

No bar.

Just use the rear seat seatbelt mount points, and the driver lap belt mount points to secure the harness. Use this hardware: http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/s...shptpt7s6912i0

And correct, this should never be used as any sort of safety restraint.



edit: the passenger submarined out of his 4 point sparco harness and was ejected. The driver hit the steering wheel like he wasn't even restrained. Never use anyhting but your OEM saftey equipment on the street. Harnesses are a potentially deadly addition to any vehicle.









Not to mention if you bump your head on that bar in even a low speed accident, you can recieve a fatal or debilitating head injury.

As far as safety restaint system, yes, all harness bars are absolute crap. Glad you can see the dangers here. A collison at an autocross is highly unlikely, but just having that bar in your car on the street, even if you're using your OEM 3 point belt, it can be a fatal mistake.



Okay, I'm making this post in an attempt to save the OP or anyone else who wishes to install a harness, harness bar, or roll cage from ending up paralyzed or dead. I see improperly used and improperly installed equipment on a regualr basis, and it kills me to see people risking their lives and their passengers lives simply because they don't have the pertinent information.

You NEVER mount harnesses to the floor, period. What is keeping you from doing a face plant on the steering wheel/dash in a front end collision? The seatback? That seat would snap like a toothpick. Not only that, as you fly forward into the dash, and you will, in even a low speed accident, the harness is going to pull down on your shoulders and compress your spine causing a debilitating or fatal back injury.

Furthermore, harnesses, harness bars, and roll cages have no place in a street car, period.

DO NOT USE HARNESS BARS for safety equipment. Use a bolted or welded in roll cage. But you are putting your life on the line if you use a roll cage, or even a harness bar without wearing a helmet AT ALL TIMES in the car. I know of someone who was killed in a 25mph collision when he bumped his head on his harness bar.

DO NOT USE ROLL BARS/CAGES on the street. You should never get into a car that has any type of roll cage or roll bar in it unless you wear a helmet at all times. See above for a further explaination of why a helmet is necessary.

DO NOT USE 4 POINT HARNESSES. Use 5 or 6 point harnesses. The reason you submarine out of a 4 point harness is that your upper body does not lean forward and over the lap belt like it would with a 3 point. Thus, the g forces force your body out under the lap belt. The act of submarining out of a belt is going to seriously injure and potentially kill you, but once you've submarined out of the harness, you can also be ejected from the car. Also, if you have a 5 or 6 point harness and it works as it should, it decelerates your torso instantly in a frontal impact, but your head will continue moving forward. This will result in a debilitating or fatal neck injury or instantly fatal basular skull fracture. Oh and that front airbag, forget about it because you'll never reach it if the harness works. Never use a harness on the street, period.

Next, harnesses should only be mounted at shoulder level and mounted only to a welded or bolted in roll cage, period. Mounting to the floor, or rear seatbelt mounts, causes the harness to pull down on your shoulders and crush your spine when you are in a frontal impact, causing a debilitating or fatal back injury. Also, you will be hitting the steering wheel/dash with full force if you've bolted the harness to the floor. The only place I would say that it is remotely safe to use an improperly installed harness is the autocross. This is because collisions at autocross events are more than rare, so you would not be at much risk of using the harness as a safety restraint. But, injuries are still possible, at least you can now weigh the risks and make an informed decision as to whether or not you use this equipment in your car.

STREET CARS DO NOT USE AFTERMARTKET SEATS. Well, they don't when they have integral airbags in the seats. When you remove the seats with airbags, the airbag light comes on, and you have now DISABLED EVERY AIRBAG IN THE CAR. You have no more front, side, or curtain airbags. You have also put yourself in hot water with your insurance company by removing your factory safety equipment. If you or someone else is injured or killed in your vehicle, even if the accident is the other guy's fault, you are going to get sued, along with the guy who hit you.

I've had several people mention that 'race cars' use this type of safety equipment, but....

Also consider that accidents in race cars are NOT usually as severe as accidents on the street. Everyone is going the same direction on a race track, so no head on collisions. The track is lined with tire walls and barriers so that it is highly unlikely that you could hit a solid object like a tree. The track is set up so that collisions are deflected and cars can't deccelerate all at once. There should be no spot on a track where you can go head on into something and deccelerate intantly. On the street, the hazards and potential impacts are far greater in likelihood and severity than on a track.

Furthermore, The safety equipment used in 'race cars' is a system, period. You cannot pick and choose what equipment you want to use. No harness without a HANS, no HANS without a helmet, no cage without a helmet, the list keeps going in cirlces. YOU NEED EVERYTHING. Race car drivers do not piecemeal their safety equipment together.

The factory safety equipment is the best possible design for street use and is also a system. When you remove or change one piece, nothing else works like it should. It kills me to see people risking and losing their lives so that they can have some Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements on their cars.

If self preservation is at all alive within you, use your factory safety equipment AND ONLY YOUR FACTORY SAFETY EQUIPMENT on the street.

I JUST installed my harness bar and will now be removing it. As far as seats go, unless you can utilize your factory 3pt harness, stay away from them. Our stock seatbelt receivers are mounted to the oem seat. If you are able to mount a bracket for them to the new seats, then go for it.

Stay away from harnesses as well as fixed back seats.

[jaloosk]

Well then.

Nobody puts more engineering into things than the manufacturer of your vehicle anyway.

[Mattt]

Good info, thank you.

[Drewski0523]

Good stuff man.

[citm2000]

These cars have great seats anyway -- especially if you were lucky enough to get the sport-fabric which was like velvet. They were well designed and supportive. I've been in many much more expensive cars whose seats were not as comfortable.

[thahnic1080]

yep theres another pic of a mustang that rolled over during a race with a harness bar. Yea wasnt pretty

[XwP1ayawX]

Originally Posted by citm2000

These cars have great seats anyway -- especially if you were lucky enough to get the sport-fabric which was like velvet. They were well designed and supportive. I've been in many much more expensive cars whose seats were not as comfortable.

Our seats are nice as far as comfort goes, but the material on mine are tacky. It looks like a ball of yarn sneezed over some grey fabric.

[Silvertune]

My 3g seats fall into the category of my bed at home: the list of things I find 100% comfortable.

I don't know much about safety equipment because I haven't gotten that far but I do know there is an appropriate way to do it for a street strip car.

[XwP1ayawX]

I would think just the opposite, the stock belts would most likely be the safest. Any type of tubing in the car would cause you brain injury if you aren't wearing a helmet.

The ideal thing for a street car that does autox or drag events here and there would be, like he says in the link, pulling your seatbelt all the way out so it only retracts, and yanking it as tight to your body as possible.

[Chad]

Agreed. While there's a 10 mile long laundry list of 3G issues, I've been very happy with the oem seats over the years.

[timster2833]

Originally Posted by Chad

Agreed. While there's a 10 mile long laundry list of 3G issues, I've been very happy with the oem seats over the years.

Your only issue is that it isn't brand new anymore... lol

[XwP1ayawX]

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with putting a cooler seat in your car, just don't try and use the incorrect safety equipment. I'll be doing a how-to soon about remountng the seat belt receivers to be able to use the oem belts on an aftermarket seat. That's the ONLY way to swap the seats in astreet car. Nobody should be driving around town wearing race harnesses and having roll cages. Not unless they plan on wearing a helmet when they pick up milk in their 3g.

[XwP1ayawX]

You would need to use something like this JEGS Performance Products 70015 JEGS Seat Belt Mounting Brackets

Mount it with a bolt and weld the living fuck out of it, then attach the receiver to that. That way you aren't depending on the aftermarket seat bracket for support. Always use a minimum of 8.8 metric bolts (grade 5), grade 10 being ideal.

[Silvertune]

Fuck 8.8. I use those for sheer pins in my snow blower. 11.8 or may god save your life.

[Bitter]

I'm going to copy this thread into the racing forums and sticky it. I'm going to edit your post with the photo from the other thread as well.

This is something I'm mentioned from time to time, people forget how much energy is involved in even a low speed impact event.

[XwP1ayawX]

Originally Posted by Silvertune

Fuck 8.8. I use those for sheer pins in my snow blower. 11.8 or may god save your life.

Oem bolts are 10, nhra rules require at least grade 5. Too much tensile strength and the bolts are so brittle that they could snap instead of give a little bit.

[Silvertune]

I've never broken an 11.8 doing anything but if that's what NHRA says then that's what NHRA says.

[XwP1ayawX]

Originally Posted by Bitter

I'm going to copy this thread into the racing forums and sticky it. I'm going to edit your post with the photo from the other thread as well.

[gomer3G]

my seat belts dont have the locking in them. i can just pull until it stops, let go and keep pulling. not only that my lock brace doesnt work either. thats when the belt gets pulled quickly and it locks and doesnt allow you to pull it out further. my belt just free flows. i plan on swapping to the evo 9 seats because they have the side curtain airbags.

[Bitter]

Originally Posted by gomer3G

my seat belts dont have the locking in them. i can just pull until it stops, let go and keep pulling. not only that my lock brace doesnt work either. thats when the belt gets pulled quickly and it locks and doesnt allow you to pull it out further. my belt just free flows. i plan on swapping to the evo 9 seats because they have the side curtain airbags.

You'll need the correct SRS module and sensors for the side airbags to work.

[drunkoffjuic]

Originally Posted by gomer3G

my seat belts dont have the locking in them. i can just pull until it stops, let go and keep pulling. not only that my lock brace doesnt work either. thats when the belt gets pulled quickly and it locks and doesnt allow you to pull it out further. my belt just free flows. i plan on swapping to the evo 9 seats because they have the side curtain airbags.

Evo 9 seats do not have side air bags. Just an FYI. You will need EVO X seats.

[thahnic1080]

Originally Posted by drunkoffjuic

Evo 9 seats do not have side air bags. Just an FYI. You will need EVO X seats.

Evo X seats dont fit in our cars. They are too wide

[drunkoffjuic]

Originally Posted by thahnic1080

Evo X seats dont fit in our cars. They are too wide

Well then there you go. FYI I plugged in the non side air bag moduel tonight. No SRS light yet.

[gomer3G]

Originally Posted by drunkoffjuic

Evo 9 seats do not have side air bags. Just an FYI. You will need EVO X seats.

are you serious, i could have sworn they did. i know the evo 8 didnt, but i thought the evo 9 was the first to have the side airbag, because they came out the same time the gts came out. i will have to go back to the dealer and double check on that. if they dont, is it possible to redo the insides and on our seats and make them more of a bucket seat. i want more side support. i would rather build a racing seat from my stock seat setup, that way i dont have to worry about connectors or brakets.

[EZT]

Originally Posted by gomer3G

are you serious, i could have sworn they did. i know the evo 8 didnt, but i thought the evo 9 was the first to have the side airbag, because they came out the same time the gts came out. i will have to go back to the dealer and double check on that. if they dont, is it possible to redo the insides and on our seats and make them more of a bucket seat. i want more side support. i would rather build a racing seat from my stock seat setup, that way i dont have to worry about connectors or brakets.

Pretty sure the Evo 8 did, I think I had them in my Eclipse.

[XwP1ayawX]

You need to fix your 3pt seat belts, airbags aren't going to keep you from flying through the windshield.

[gomer3G]

Originally Posted by XwP1ayawX

You need to fix your 3pt seat belts, airbags aren't going to keep you from flying through the windshield.

I have unbolted the driver side and am running my 4pt harness.

[XwP1ayawX]

Did you read the article lol? 4pt harnesses are dangerous, oem use 3pt harnesses to allow you to move if the roof caves and prevent you from submarining under the harness.

[thahnic1080]

Originally Posted by XwP1ayawX

Did you read the article lol? 4pt harnesses are dangerous, oem use 3pt harnesses to allow you to move if the roof caves and prevent you from submarining under the harness.

this is gomers 4 point harness





ill take compress spine for 500 please

[gomer3G]

What about the seats from a 4g gt. Will they fit.

[Tx4Codeman]

Originally Posted by gomer3G

What about the seats from a 4g gt. Will they fit.

3G to 4G Seats Interchange
4g seats in a 3g?
4G seats in a 3G?
will 4g seats fit?

[drunkoffjuic]

Originally Posted by EZT

Pretty sure the Evo 8 did, I think I had them in my Eclipse.

These?


NO, they do not I have a set of them sitting in the basement, as well as the EVO 9 MR seats. They do not have air bags.

[gomer3G]

so if none of the seats fit or have airbags then how are we supposed to upgrade the gts seats.

Oh, a brand new replacement seat belt is practically $200 at the dealership.

[XwP1ayawX]

Dude... its your LIFE. Your abiliy to WALK.

[Hyde]

To comment on gomers 4 pt harness I was always told you dont want your harness bolted to the floor. Reason being in case of an accident it can compress your spin. Hence why harness bars came to be.

[kabob]

"Compress your spin"? What? Clarify please, that makes no sense.

[ADRIENNE]

Originally Posted by kabob

"Compress your spin"? What? Clarify please, that makes no sense.

Spine. It even said it in the article. Evo VIIIs will fit in the 3g and you can still utilize the oem 3pt harness, and they do not have side air bags

[XwP1ayawX]

You guys can mount any seat, you just need to mount the seat belt receiver. I haven't gotten to it, but Jegs and Summit sell generic seat belt anchors that are affixed to a square plate. What you would do is weld it to either the floor or the metal hump under your center console, then mount the belt receiver to that. That way you would retain the factory belts and still have aftermarket seats.

Our seats have the belt receivers permenantly attached. You would need to source some that fit

[drunkoffjuic]

If you go through wedge engineering they attach seat belt brackets to their custom seat brackets.

[ICEMAN99TURBO]

When I bought my Sparco 3points, the manufacturer requested placement was in fact the rear seat belt mounting bolts... I have sence moved them, oh about 9 years or so now, due to the fact I got told at AutoX I would have a compressed spine in a crash. Now why would the manufacture risk law suits by puttin false info in the dadgum dirrections?