Buick Ranks Highest In Vehicle Dependability

[Jabber]

Oh dear god. Even you don't believe that article, do you Mav? That article is so full of misinformation it is frightening.

Originally Posted by Greenpeace idiot article

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

Does anyone really believe that a Hybrid Toyota will only last 100,000 miles and a Hummer will last 300,000??? In fact, CNW is basing their life expectancy numbers on average miles driven per year by consumers. Prius miles per year=6,700. It would take 15 years to reach 100,000 miles. 15 years is what they considered a good time frame for people to get rid of a vehicle. So they went ahead and used the same time frame on a Hummer. Since they used the Hummer mileage as 20,000 per year ( x 15 years=300,00), their entire basis of the study is fundamentally flawed.

I have yet to see a Hummer with more than 100k. As a matter of fact, pulling up all the records over the last 6 months, there has never been an H1 with more than 80,000 miles sold at any auction in the US. By comparison, a quick search of just 2001 and 2002 prius have netted 21 with more than 130k miles in the same period of time. One even had 190k on it. So not only are they WAY off on their estimates of life expectancy, but they are off on the average miles per year driven on each vehicle. Let's look at some realistic numbers now. I am still going to use their total dollars (even though they are completely flawed also), and recalculate.

Hummer Life Expectancy: 100k
Prius Life Expectancy: 200k
Cost for Hummer: $5.85
Cost for Prius: $1.62

Based on the more realistic driving mileages, it looks like you can build, drive, and destroy 3.5 prius to every 1 Hummer.

[Jabber]

Originally Posted by Doric

DORIC'S THIS-MOTHAFUCKA'S-GETTIN'-LOCKED-DOWN-OMETER:

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Doric, leave it open just a little bit longer. The GM vs. Toyota debate is way too good.

[Doric]

Well, so far, it's a pretty good debate. But I see personal attacks on the horizon.

[Rob]

sorry Doric, got a little carried away there.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Jabber

Oh dear god. Even you don't believe that article, do you Mav? That article is so full of misinformation it is frightening.



Does anyone really believe that a Hybrid Toyota will only last 100,000 miles and a Hummer will last 300,000??? In fact, CNW is basing their life expectancy numbers on average miles driven per year by consumers. Prius miles per year=6,700. It would take 15 years to reach 100,000 miles. 15 years is what they considered a good time frame for people to get rid of a vehicle. So they went ahead and used the same time frame on a Hummer. Since they used the Hummer mileage as 20,000 per year ( x 15 years=300,00), their entire basis of the study is fundamentally flawed.

I have yet to see a Hummer with more than 100k. As a matter of fact, pulling up all the records over the last 6 months, there has never been an H1 with more than 80,000 miles sold at any auction in the US. By comparison, a quick search of just 2001 and 2002 prius have netted 21 with more than 130k miles in the same period of time. One even had 190k on it. So not only are they WAY off on their estimates of life expectancy, but they are off on the average miles per year driven on each vehicle. Let's look at some realistic numbers now. I am still going to use their total dollars (even though they are completely flawed also), and recalculate.

Hummer Life Expectancy: 100k
Prius Life Expectancy: 200k
Cost for Hummer: $5.85
Cost for Prius: $1.62

Based on the more realistic driving mileages, it looks like you can build, drive, and destroy 3.5 prius to every 1 Hummer.

From what I have been told by Southeast Toyota, Toyota ends up goodwilling batteries when they fail. Regardless of mileage.

[Jabber]

Originally Posted by Doric

Well, so far, it's a pretty good debate. But I see personal attacks on the horizon.

However, we have gotten off an a tangent, haven't we?

We should just have a subforum of Other Cars called Mav Vs. Jabber.

[Jabber]

Originally Posted by Rob

From what I have been told by Southeast Toyota, Toyota ends up goodwilling batteries when they fail. Regardless of mileage.

At the 2 Toyota stores I have worked for, neither one has ever replaced a battery since the prius came out in 2001.

[Doric]

Originally Posted by Jabber

We should just have a subforum of Other Cars called Mav Vs. Jabber.

All the players are here. NHRATA01, Manybrews, Mav, Sam, yourself... One comment by Mav will set Sam off and this thread will go to five pages. Manybrews and NHRATA01 will go head-to-head about Mitsu's lack of reliability for at least one more.

As it has been, so shall it be.

[Jabber]

Originally Posted by Doric

All the players are here. NHRATA01, Manybrews, Mav, Sam, yourself... One comment by Mav will set Sam off and this thread will go to five pages. Manybrews and NHRATA01 will go head-to-head about Mitsu's lack of reliability for at least one more.

As it has been, so shall it be.

Truthfully, I am anxiously awaiting one of Sams patented "Multi-Quote, I'm going to beat you into submission until you change your screen name to evade me" posts. Followed by the obligatory "Why are you changing your screen name to evade me, Noob. I have IP checked you. You're banned." post.

[FLiPMaRC]

Originally Posted by Jabber

Truthfully, I am anxiously awaiting one of Sams patented "Multi-Quote, I'm going to beat you into submission until you change your screen name to evade me" posts. Followed by the obligatory "Why are you changing your screen name to evade me, Noob. I have IP checked you. You're banned." post.

Sam is master of that

[FLiPMaRC]

Originally Posted by Doric

DORIC'S THIS-MOTHAFUCKA'S-GETTIN'-LOCKED-DOWN-OMETER:

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That's new to me

[NHRATA01]

Originally Posted by Rob

My ass the 3.8L is reliable. I have had a SHIT ton more claims on any GM motor versus a mitsubishi. The spy hunter movie line was good, the mitsu's can use smoke screen for the oil burners and the GM's can use it for the coolant burners. Give me a break.

It cracks me that a guy buys a GM and let's say his family has bought them. Let us also presume that they have never had a problem with those cars at all, which is great. But it is pretty presumptuous to think the rest of the world has had the same good luck especially when there are a crap ton of consumer guides out there bashing the shit out of 'em.

The only consumer guide typically bashing them is the notoriously unreliable Consumer Reports. JD Power's has been giving GM division good reliability ratings for the past 4-5 years. Toyota/Honda level ratings, not quite, but better than average. But rather than accept the data as presented, it seems people would prefer to bicker over the tendencies of the buyres.

GM makes some very solid motors, and the 3.8 is one of them, and has been for years since it was sliced off of a Buick V8 back in the 60s. GM has made some very bad motors, and the 60 degree V6s and Quad 4 are among them. GM also has made some of the best transmissions in the buisiness for years, enough so that BMW, Rolls, and Bentley have all purchased them at one time or another (BMW still does).

And yes, I always have to have fun with Manybrews. His Mitsu fanboyism trumps my GM fanboyism by at least 2x. Maybe 3x. Also as I've mentioned before, I happen to own a Toyota product.

[Jabber]

No arguement there NHRA. the 3.8 motor for GM is and always has been bulletproof. Wards best for years on end.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by NHRATA01

The only consumer guide typically bashing them is the notoriously unreliable Consumer Reports. JD Power's has been giving GM division good reliability ratings for the past 4-5 years. Toyota/Honda level ratings, not quite, but better than average. But rather than accept the data as presented, it seems people would prefer to bicker over the tendencies of the buyres.

GM makes some very solid motors, and the 3.8 is one of them, and has been for years since it was sliced off of a Buick V8 back in the 60s. GM has made some very bad motors, and the 60 degree V6s and Quad 4 are among them. GM also has made some of the best transmissions in the buisiness for years, enough so that BMW, Rolls, and Bentley have all purchased them at one time or another (BMW still does).

And yes, I always have to have fun with Manybrews. His Mitsu fanboyism trumps my GM fanboyism by at least 2x. Maybe 3x. Also as I've mentioned before, I happen to own a Toyota product.

I am mostly just busting your chops, NHRA. Every time I hear someone talk about how great a particular motor or transmission is my first reaction is to pick it apart because of my personal experience processing warranty claims. Do I think today's 3.8L is a great motor? No, not really. I actually just finished authorizing a $1,000 worth or oil and coolant leaks on one. Same thing goes with GM transmissions. I would venture to say we spend about $50,000 a day on overhauls or Serta's for the 4L60e. Now, just put yourself in my shoes for a second. If you continued to see the same thing every day on particular cars would you want to buy one?

[NHRATA01]

Well true, when you work in service, you're going to see the worst examples of everything. Generally 3.8s are as solid as they come, though that's not to say there aren't bad examples, or ill-maintained examples. Likewise generally the Jeep 4.0 I6's are absolute tanks, yet my in-laws had theirs shit the bed at 60k miles for no apparent reason. There's a ton of 4L60s out there, and if they were generic trash, GMs autos wouldn't be used by a number of luxury name plates. Alot of LSx guys flat out abuse the 4L60s, and they tend to last well into the 11s in most cases, which isn't shabby for a stock trans. FWIW the failure rate on Honda autos is likely higher, but few seem to give note to that, and Honda gets to keep its bulletproof rep.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by NHRATA01

Well true, when you work in service, you're going to see the worst examples of everything. Generally 3.8s are as solid as they come, though that's not to say there aren't bad examples, or ill-maintained examples. Likewise generally the Jeep 4.0 I6's are absolute tanks, yet my in-laws had theirs shit the bed at 60k miles for no apparent reason. There's a ton of 4L60s out there, and if they were generic trash, GMs autos wouldn't be used by a number of luxury name plates. Alot of LSx guys flat out abuse the 4L60s, and they tend to last well into the 11s in most cases, which isn't shabby for a stock trans. FWIW the failure rate on Honda autos is likely higher, but few seem to give note to that, and Honda gets to keep its bulletproof rep.

I totally agree with you about Honda. Odyssey and V6 accord transmissions are complete junk. Luckily Honda has recently released their reman program for vehicles outside of factory warranty so the prices have dropped substantially. Not to mention problems they have with rear main leaks, motor mounts, ac repairs and etc. etc. Honda does not make the bullet proof car like they used to.

All in all, my perception of cars may be skewed because as you said I see the worst.

[Manybrews]

Originally Posted by NHRATA01

I'm sure there are many more Buicks running after 13 years than those "well built" Mitsubishis, considering the reliability of the 3.8 >>>> any Mitsu motor.

Don't worry, if they ever make a Spy Hunter movie, I'm sure they can find a use for those oil burners...

not sure where you get your info...
GM has STILL got far more valve seal issues than mitsu. Mitsu fixed theres 15 years ago, but somehow the smallblock still seems to eat valve seals for lunch. Hell, my dads 01 suburban with 50,000 on it always sees a lovely blue puff in the morning. 50 years and they still cant get it right. maybe they finally got it right with the last generation.

the reliability of the 3.8 is mediocre, at best. Theyve been building that iron lump for 40 years and STILL have constant issues with it (oil burning, coolant loss, etc.etc). That 2004 park avenue I spoke of earlier had a 3.8 in it. And at 30,000 miles needed 500 bucks worth of work to stop it from leaking. Nice. the 3.8 isnt as bad as most of GMs engines as far as longevity goes, but its certainly not a world class engine. Its overweight, underpowered, and thrashy.
As far as block longevity goes, mitsu kills GM. Take apart any mitsu block at 200K and you can still see the cross hatch in the cylinders. Take apart a GM block at 100k and you need a ridge reamer just to remove the pistons.

And in regards to my "fanboyism", IM not the one constantly posting an article whenever GM does something correctly (as rare as that is). I mearly post to others threads.
Ive owned 40 cars from many manufacturers. I have no bias for or against mitsu. I just despise everything GM has made in the last 2 decades, as they built some truely awful cars.

[NHRATA01]

Seeing the crosshatch on any motor over 100k is not impressive anymore. Change your oil on a regular basis, and take care of your motor, and it'll be there. I've pulled heads off many 100k+ LSx motors (including the truck motors) and they still have the crosshatch. That's like saying its impressive not to see copper on 100k bearings. If you don't have severe oiling problems, you'll see the hone marks. Fairly common.

And since numerous examples of the 3.8 have gone faster and held up to more power than any mitsu block that ever saw the light of day, I'd say its far superior in terms of strength. And it was good enough for Buick to sell the design to Rover. Yes, the 200hp 3.8 is overdue to be put to pasture at this point, but in '95 it was making 200hp and pulling 30mpg, which were good numbers back then.

BTW, neither SBC's nor LSx's have valve seal problems, at least not commonly (like Mitsus). A number of LSx's do have issues sucking oil though the PCV, which will cause consumption. And '00s and '01s have had some consumption issues because they used low tension oil rings, which didn't seal as well as they should've and would flutter under low load/high rpm conditions. That was fixed in 2002 with new rings.