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Old 03/24/2008, 08:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Flooding on Startup.....among other problems

Hey Guys,

I've owned my car for about 5 months and am getting really irritated with it. I am currently trying to diagnose a low-rpm hesitation issue and have only created more problems. I drive a 2002 Dodge Stratus R/T 3.0L V6. I pulled the intake plenum TWICE, the first tiem to replace the plugs and wires and the second time to pugrade the plugs and wires.....I have replaced the plugs and wires with Bosch 7mm Ultra Wires and NGK-R (2647) PFR5G-11 Laser Platinums (listed in owners manual). So everythings back together and the car doesn't even want to start. I pull the front 3 plugs and the cylinders are drenched with fuel....not a little, a friggin' puddle of fuel on the piston. So I pulled the plugs and crnak the car over with the fuel pump fuse removed to clear out the fuel/vapor. I reinstall the plugs and the car fires until it's starved of fuel, which then I reintall the fuse and the car runs. SO I got the car running. Then I took it for a ride and the damn thing is still hesitating aswell as backfiring in the itake aifold at times. To be honest, I have never really gotten good fuel mileage and am wondering if the FPR could be the culprit. I did pull the EGR Valve and block off the ports and reintalled it and the car seemed to be runing better. Does the EGR have anything to do fuel trims? The car is at my mechanics and he is confused as to whats going wrong here. I have also replaced the dist. cap and rotor. Can anyone tell me if this is a fuel or ignition problem?? Could the MAS be going bad (which I sprayed with electrical parts cleaner)?? Either way, an FPR, MAS, or Distributor is uber-expensive for these cars! Someone please hel me here!
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Old 05/09/2008, 02:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Finally took my car to the dealership today. Dropped it off @ 7:30AM for a $70 diagnosis. I just received a call back and was told that my car needs a software update, which was listed in a TSB by Chrysler. Service advisor said they had to contact Chrysler Star something or another to get advice on the problem. SO after rolling in $70 into the repair, it's going to cost me $300 for the update. Does this sound reasonable? I have no problem paying it to get my car running good again, but was curious about your thoughts.
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Old 05/09/2008, 02:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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That sounds fishy to me. IIRC, there was a recall on just a few ECU's that had a fuel issue. If yours was one of them, it should have been fixed for free. If yours is not one of the ones in the recall, then he is blowing smoke up your tailpipe.
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Old 05/09/2008, 02:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Can you offer me a link to the recall? If I had a recall #, perhaps I could present this as evidence that it was supposed to be done. Obviously the car is out of warranty, so a TSB is out of my pocket. Let me know. Thanks.

Update: The only recall I found on Edmunds.com is for a Cardone Brake Master Cylinder leak......and 58 TSB's, which probably includes my ECM reflash/update.

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Old 05/09/2008, 02:47 PM   #5 (permalink)
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From what I remember it was only a few, and I think they were all 2001's. Now that I think about it a little more, I think it had to do with spurious SES lights for misfires. That's the only defect I can ever remember that required a reflash, and it was recalled.
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Old 05/09/2008, 02:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
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did you replace the cap and rotor at all. you may have screwed the timing.
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Old 05/09/2008, 02:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Plugs, Wires, Cap and Rotor have all been replaced, along with checking the injectors, EGR, fuel pressure, fuel pump, etc. That's why she's at the shop. I will know in an hour or so when I get the car.
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Old 05/10/2008, 01:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Got the car back and not a mile down the road, the car started hesitating again. So much for the dealership knowing how to fix my car!? Of course they have my $317 in the meantime. I discussed this with my father, and he said they shouldn't be able to charge me the $17 for tax when it was a "software" update, requiring labor and not parts. (6% MI tax) here I was happy to spend the money to have my car running good again, but no. Man dealerships piss me off! The car goes back on Monday. I'll keep you guys posted.
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Old 05/10/2008, 01:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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That's why I told you that there was no software flash. Do you have access to a scan tool so that you can retrieve past as well as any potential current ones? There's always that chance that your SES light is not working, however remote.

Beyond that, the usual advice to clean the throttle body, check the PCV, etc, still applies. If you're worried it might be the MAS -- you should consider borrowing one from someone nearby and seeing if your car runs better with theirs before you drop the money for a replacement.

The EGR can cause problems if it get stuck, but you'd know already if that was the problem, because the computer would detect it.

The only sensor I can think of that is not part of the MAF assembly which might be related is the coolant temperature sensor. If your car always thinks it's cold, it will run richer than it otherwise would. That should affect the gauge reading on the dash, however, and you haven't reported any aberrant behavior there.
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Old 05/11/2008, 10:15 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So I popped the hood this morning to inspect everything, and see if the CPS had any signs of wear, fraying, etc. I noticed the red plastic cap on the positive terminal had been removed and set to the side...surprised it didnt get bounced around and lost on the drive home. ALso noticed my air filter was extremely loose.....man I tell you these "ASE" Tech's really don't put alot of effort in their "repairs".

I did some thread searching and found a "P0300" thread relating to ones car and having to take it back to the dealership under warranty. After replacing multiple parts, they finally fixed it by replacing the CPS. DO you think it's worthwhile to buy one and see if that remedies it. Should the CPS throw a code if it is faulty? The only code I have ever gotten related to the problem is P0300. I'm just waiting to take it to the dealership tomorrow and the tech calls me up and says the whole computer needs to be replaced, costing $6XX.......in all honesty, I'd rather get my cash back and continue troubleshooting this thing myself.

I am assuming the coolant temp sensor is fine, as it reads just fine on the instrument cluster. I do, however, hear the coolant running through the heater core when I rev it a bit. I have left the rad. cap off for a while to try to remedy that, but it didn't help.
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Old 05/11/2008, 10:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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If by CPS, you mean Crankshaft Position Sensor, that's no easy proposition. It's under the timing belt cover.

If by CPS you mean, camshaft position sensor, then, strictly speaking, you don't have one. There's a TDC sensor that's part of the distributer. Replacing the entire unit is the only way to replace the sensor. That's not cheap or easy either.

Either one can cause a P0300. The way the computer determines a misfire is by correlating the inputs of one with the other.
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Old 05/11/2008, 05:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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By saying CPS, I mean Crank Pos. Sensor. My mechanic pulled the distributor out and inspected everything and it looked good, so he put it back in. Perhaps I should find a used distributor and throw that in the car and see if that helps.

I have already bought used injectors and swapped them out. DIdn't change anything. Which of the following do you suggest I try to swap out next?

ECM
Distributor
Crank Pos. Sensor

The only "new" part I'd replace is the CPS.....both the distributor and ECM would be used, working units. Please respond with your thoughts. It really isn't a "random" misfire, as the car almost completely cuts-out. This leads me to believe not just one or two cylinders are misfiring - I think they all are!
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Old 05/13/2008, 01:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Does a distributor act up intermittently?

I am wondering if my distributor is the culprit, but the car only misfires at lower RPM's. Is it normal for a distributor to only act up at lower rpms and be fine at higher rpms? I am still trying to get my money back from the dealership......and they are trying to get Chrysler to cover it under the 8 yr. 80K warranty......stating it is emissions-related.....of course they didn't attempt this until I told them I wanted a full refund.
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Old 05/13/2008, 01:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Since you've replaced plugs, wires, rotor, and cap, the distributor is the next logical step. Have you messed up the timing somehow, perhaps?
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Old 05/14/2008, 07:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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CITM,

Are you referring to the ignition timing or physical cam timing? Unless the t-belt skipped a tooth or two, I don't see how that could be thrown off, and have no idea how the ignition timing could change. The car (usually) runs very smooth in the upper RPM's, leading me to believe that if it is the distributor, it's only in the lower RPM's, if that's even possible. I have the manual-recommended NGK Iridium Laser Platinums in the car, not gapped because the manual suggests against gapping iridium plugs. Those suckers cost me arouns $11 ea. so they are not cheap enough to just throw another set in the car!

What I also though was weird is that the car's fans kicked on yesterday, when sitting and idling. No A/C running, and it was 60 degress or cooler. The intake manifold was too hot to touch, as was everything else in the engine compartment. I'm wondering if the car is running too hot, perhaps a stuck themostat or something. But the temp sensor gets up to temp and is where it should be, and both radiator hoses are hot and very pressurized. Does this sound normal?
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Old 05/14/2008, 08:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
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If it weren't for the fuel in the cylinders, I'd doubt that it was even mis-firing. I'd say it was a false indication due to a problem processing the inputs of the TDC and CP sensors.

Are there any other codes at all? Is the computer reporting Too Rich or Fuel Trim Malfunctions?

Always check the gap. You'd be surprised how many of those "pre-gapped" ones are way off. That said, I have the original plugs in my car at 134k miles. I'm sure they're worn down to the nub and they don't miss.

The fans kicking on isn't really an issue. If the temp gauge reads fine, don't worry. Warmed up, I've had the fans engage on my car in subzero temps at idle. The outside temp has nothing to do with it. It's the coolant temp that controls that, and I'm 99% certain that the gauge is driven by the same sensor that provides the PCM its input. If the thermo was sticking, you'd see that temp climb, and fast.

It's puzzling that it only happens at low RPMs. Does it only happen at idle or anywhere in the low range? The EGR is supposed to close at idle. I suppose it could be not closing, but I doubt it. First, that would almost certainly throw a code. Second, it staying open at WOT (the other time it's supposed to be closed) would affect high RPM performance as well, provided you were at WOT when you reached the high RPMs.
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Old 05/14/2008, 09:30 AM   #17 (permalink)
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The only code the car is throwing is the P0300 - Mult. Cylinder Misfire. Also, last night I pulle3d the connector for the Crank Pos. Sensor and the car shut down. Does this mean I can rule it out as a possibility? The wires looked fine, no rubbing on accessory belts, etc. The only thing I ever "changed" was the idle set screw. I later read up it is a last resort but that was after the fact.

The weird thing is when this started happening a few month back, when rerplacing the plugs, the car ran good for a bout a week or so then started acting up again. I also want to say it has to do with the plugs/wires, since it's only throwing the most obvious code of all. No other codes!

P.S. I did get a full refund from the dealership, becuase I brought up the fact that the service tech never signed the estimate, never put down any hours of labor, labor price, etc. Now they're trying to recoup the money from Chrysler!

Also, when I pulled the MAF plug, the RPM's jumped up a bit, and the car seemed to be idling much more smoothly. I have a buddy with the same car and maybe I could swap MAF's just for the hell of it and rule that out.

CITM, thanks for all the help, please keep picking your brain as to why my car might be acting up. I was also wondering how involved it is to replace the ECM.....It looks as though the blower motor for the heated needs to be removed to replace it........

-ALSO: The car only does it under 2,000 RPMS 95% of the time. Sometimes, when about 2K, at steady throttle, I will feel a cylinder drop off. Unless I remove my foot from the gas and reapply, it will continue to misfire while climbing through the RPM band.

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Old 05/14/2008, 10:07 AM   #18 (permalink)
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...and I'm 99% certain that the gauge is driven by the same sensor that provides the PCM its input.
Sorry Citm, I'm going to have to correct you on this. There are two sensors mounted near the top radiator hose connection. The single wire sensor is for the gauge. The double wire sensor is for the computer. The only way to really check this sensor for sure is to data log the car and see what the computer is registering for temperature.

1Bad02RT, it sounds like your car has gone into fail-safe mode. (the computer might be shot) For sure, with all the problems you have described, the car should have thrown more codes. Take a look at the Fail-safe chart in the FSM on page 13B-21. This will give you an idea of what the car will do when a sensor has failed.
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Old 05/14/2008, 10:21 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Sorry Citm, I'm going to have to correct you on this. There are two sensors mounted near the top radiator hose connection. The single wire sensor is for the gauge. The double wire sensor is for the computer. The only way to really check this sensor for sure is to data log the car and see what the computer is registering for temperature.
This is good to know. The wiring diagrams are very ambiguous on this.

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1Bad02RT, it sounds like your car has gone into fail-safe mode. (the computer might be shot) For sure, with all the problems you have described, the car should have thrown more codes. Take a look at the Fail-safe chart in the FSM on page 13B-21. This will give you an idea of what the car will do when a sensor has failed.
The lack of additional codes is why I haven't headed down this path. Every single situation that can cause the computer to exit closed loop operation throws a code of its own.
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Old 05/14/2008, 10:32 AM   #20 (permalink)
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The lack of additional codes is why I haven't headed down this path. Every single situation that can cause the computer to exit closed loop operation throws a code of its own.
Yup. I only point out the chart because it describes what the computer will do to try to compensate for a missing or malfunctioning sensor without involving any codes. For example, the fuel injectors will be turned on constantly if the cam sensor is not working. (his flooding issue)
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Old 05/14/2008, 10:34 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Do you two think it's worthwhile to pull the upper plenum again, and check the plugs/wires, etc. once more? I know this juob is a PITA, but I'm getting pretty good at it! I however am not keen on throwing another $70 in plugs into it. Perhaps I should *attempt to gap the iridium plugs, using extreme caution.
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Old 05/14/2008, 10:37 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Do you two think it's worthwhile to pull the upper plenum again, and check the plugs/wires, etc. once more? I know this juob is a PITA, but I'm getting pretty good at it! I however am not keen on throwing another $70 in plugs into it. Perhaps I should *attempt to gap the iridium plugs, using extreme caution.
If you're so good at it, you should come and do mine! I recommend checking the gap on Bank 2's plugs and, depending on what you see, decide on Bank 1.
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Old 05/14/2008, 11:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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The only code the car is throwing is the P0300 - Mult. Cylinder Misfire. Also, last night I pulle3d the connector for the Crank Pos. Sensor and the car shut down. Does this mean I can rule it out as a possibility? The wires looked fine, no rubbing on accessory belts, etc.
No, I dont think it rules it out entirely. I am familiar with the other thread you spoke of with this same issue. His car still ran, but only until the CPS was replaced, was the car finally fixed.

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Do you two think it's worthwhile to pull the upper plenum again, and check the plugs/wires, etc. once more? I know this juob is a PITA, but I'm getting pretty good at it! I however am not keen on throwing another $70 in plugs into it. Perhaps I should *attempt to gap the iridium plugs, using extreme caution.
No, I think your labor would be better spent changing the Crank position sensor. You have already done the spark plugs and wires twice before so I think that can be ruled out.
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Old 05/14/2008, 11:50 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm guessing, like all epectrical parts, that the crank pos. sensor isn't returnable? If it doesn't fix the car, I'd like to be able to return it, or pawn it at close to face value here on the boards. Also, are there certain brands to steer clear of (quality issues) when going to a place like AutoZone to get the part?
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Old 05/14/2008, 11:56 AM   #25 (permalink)
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http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...02&catalogid=1
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:07 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Go with an OEM part for the best quality.

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I'm guessing, like all epectrical parts, that the crank pos. sensor isn't returnable? If it doesn't fix the car, I'd like to be able to return it, or pawn it at close to face value here on the boards. Also, are there certain brands to steer clear of (quality issues) when going to a place like AutoZone to get the part?
I don't get it, you were willing to spend another $70 on a third set of plugs.

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Do you two think it's worthwhile to pull the upper plenum again, and check the plugs/wires, etc. once more? I know this juob is a PITA, but I'm getting pretty good at it! I however am not keen on throwing another $70 in plugs into it. Perhaps I should *attempt to gap the iridium plugs, using extreme caution.
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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That's a good price, but if I buy one and have to return it (and am actually able to) then I'd prefer it be local to make it easier to get my refund.

Also, I can't locate a how-to in doing this repair. All I know is the front right wheel likely has to be removed, as well as the timing belt cover. Do the acc. belts have to come off to get the cover off? I have the FSM so that should expalin it in there.
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:13 PM   #28 (permalink)
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yes, the acc. belts will both need to be removed since the harmonic balancer has to come off in order to get the timing cover off.
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ahh....just like my old Neon. That means I need to get a Har. Bal. puller too....yippee! Sure I shouldn't swap out the distributor first??
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rc_maniac View Post
Go with an OEM part for the best quality.



I don't get it, you were willing to spend another $70 on a third set of plugs.
The factory manual calls for the laser-platinum NGK plugs. How is that not OEM?
I believe it calls for PFR5G-11 Also has a listing for Denso plugs as well.

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Old 05/14/2008, 12:20 PM   #31 (permalink)
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yes, the acc. belts will both need to be removed since the harmonic balancer has to come off in order to get the timing cover off.
Have fun with that.
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:26 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BAD02RT View Post
The factory manual calls for the laser-platinum NGK plugs. How is that not OEM?
I believe it calls for PFR5G-11 Also has a listing for Denso plugs as well.
I meant for the Crank sensor.
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Old 05/14/2008, 12:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Ahh....just like my old Neon. That means I need to get a Har. Bal. puller too....yippee!
you wont need a puller, its not a press fit. Just remove the bolt and it will come off.

Quote:
Sure I shouldn't swap out the distributor first??
Whatever you're most comfortable with. Go for it. It will most likely be more expensive though.

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Old 05/14/2008, 01:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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The only thing that is amking me hesitate to buy the CPS, is the fact that the car ran good for a while after the plugs were changed......but then again, the car runs good in the upper RPM's......I should just break down and buy the crank sensor, but I'll be disappointed if it's not the problem - another $75 down the drain. Do these items wear out over time? In other words, is all lost by repalcing it when it was working fine? But I guess I won't know if it's bad until I replace it, right?
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Old 05/14/2008, 01:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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You should post up in the regional forums to see if someone will let you borrow their working MAF, distributor, and anything else you might want to just try before you buy. The CPS is probably too much work, however, to just try.

Are you sure you're not getting any codes other than P03XX?
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Old 05/15/2008, 01:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Went to a friends yesterday, who has an 04 RT......swapped the MAF and barometric pressure sensor. I can now rule them out. I am likely gonig to buy a used distributor from "Burn504", but need to find the part number off of mine first. Does anyone know which years, model are interchangeable?
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Old 05/15/2008, 02:03 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I think all years 00-05 for the eclipse are interchangeable with it, provided they have the same motor (which was offered all six years).
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Old 05/15/2008, 02:45 PM   #38 (permalink)
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2000 - 2001 MD374416

2001 and up MD375920
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Old 05/18/2008, 10:15 PM   #39 (permalink)
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SO I went out and bought an OBD-II scanner w/ Live Data.....

I got an OBD-II scaner w/ live data feature, and wanted to report the results.......

DTC Code, Pending code (1 each), both are P0300 - Multiple Cylinder Random Misfire, No other codes!!!

SO I measured outputs @ idle and @ 2500rpms:

IDLE:

Coolant Temp: 199 Degrees
ST Fuel Trim 1: -2 to +3%
LT Fuel Trim 1: 6.2%
ST Fuel Trim 2: -3 to +2%
LT Fuel Trim 2: 3.1%
Ignition Advance: 12-18 Degrees
MAF: .40
O2S11: 0-1.00
O2S22: 0-.80
O2S21:
O2S22:
ABS TPS: 0%

2500RPM's:

Coolant Temp: 196 Degrees
ST Fuel Trim 1: -4 to +?%
LT Fuel Trim 1: 2.3%
ST Fuel Trim 2: ?
LT Fuel Trim 2: 0.7%
Ignition Advance: 38 Degrees
MAF: 1.4
O2S11: 0-3.1%
O2S22: 0-3.1%
O2S21: 7.5%
O2S22: ?%
ABS TPS: 9.4%

I missed a few of the O2 ad fuel trim %'s.......can get those if necessary. The only thing that caught my attention was the Ignition Advance %'s. Seems high but I really don't know what it's suppsed to be...lol

Do these values point anything significant out?
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Old 05/19/2008, 07:38 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Well I just ordered a Crank Position Sensor from Trademotion.......hopefully swapping this out might remedy the misfire. Also need to try the carb cleaner on the intake gasket too.......
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Old 05/20/2008, 12:32 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I was hoping for a response from CITM2000 or RC Maniac on these data values..........
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Old 05/20/2008, 01:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I was going to go through the factory service manual to look for the acceptable numbers, but I haven't had time. I've been busy with work lately. I don't see anything too surprising there.
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Old 05/20/2008, 02:03 PM   #43 (permalink)
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How long were you holding 2500 rpms? My long term fuel trims don't change that drastically when I rev the engine for a short time.



Is your car modified? If so, what have you done to it?

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Old 05/20/2008, 02:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The car has a "short-ram" air filter, just after the MAF........no other mods at all. I have swapped back to tock before, and no difference. I was holding the RPM's for a few secs...that's it. I am going to head my buddy's plae tonight and compare the outputs on his 04 R/T.

*Another thing I noticed, which may help or not:

When I sit and reve the car up and down between idle and 1500 rpms (up, down, up, down) for a monute or so, the car seems to "fix" itself and idle smoothly for a short period of time.......then it goes back to misfiring. Also, when I turn the blower knob from 0 to 1, the idle becomes much rougher with more load. BUT....when it bucks on acceleration, when I pin the pedal to the floor, it smoothes out.

Also, is there any way to clean O2 sensors?? I was reading up to monitor how frequently the values change (my mch. said they seemed little slow) and also read that an O2 sensor could be bad but not throw a code. Given the car has four, and I bet they are atleast $60 a pop, I'd like to know if they are really back before repalcing them.

And lastly......when I replace the crank positon sensor, should I be checking the condition of the "reluctor rings"? I'm not even sure what they are, but I assume they are what the sensor picks up from the crank to give it the "pulse" for the signal. Are these rings a replaceable part?? And what conditions should i look for. I hate to have the car torn down and mis an important step in repacing the CPS. (obviously check condition/timing of timin belt when the cover is off)
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Old 05/20/2008, 02:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I also recently installed a glowshift fuel pressure gauge (elec), and after the car problems, of course. Sometimes when I start the car, the psi will read 50psi.......the after a few secs. drop to 38psi. Other times it will start @ 38 psi, and obviously increase with vacuum/throttle %. I'm not sure if the gauge is faulty, or if the car forces a rich mixture for a few seconds after starting, then drops back down to normal. In observing the fuel pressure, I cannot link it to the musfire in any way (no spike, dropoff, etc. when misfiring) and therefore have ruled it out.

Do you think it's worthwhile to pull the plenum and swap in the other three injectors I bought, in case one of the rear ones is faulty?

Also, can someone identify which O2 sensors are ferenced in the data output? i.e. S11 = up/downstream, left/right bank, etc. Also, what do the two separate fuel trims signify? left/right bank??

Sorry for all the Q's, but I can;t only learn this stuff by asking questions, guys! I hope y'all understand.
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Old 05/20/2008, 03:49 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I also recently installed a glowshift fuel pressure gauge (elec), and after the car problems, of course. Sometimes when I start the car, the psi will read 50psi.......the after a few secs. drop to 38psi. Other times it will start @ 38 psi, and obviously increase with vacuum/throttle %. I'm not sure if the gauge is faulty, or if the car forces a rich mixture for a few seconds after starting, then drops back down to normal. In observing the fuel pressure, I cannot link it to the musfire in any way (no spike, dropoff, etc. when misfiring) and therefore have ruled it out.

Do you think it's worthwhile to pull the plenum and swap in the other three injectors I bought, in case one of the rear ones is faulty?

Also, can someone identify which O2 sensors are ferenced in the data output? i.e. S11 = up/downstream, left/right bank, etc. Also, what do the two separate fuel trims signify? left/right bank??

Sorry for all the Q's, but I can;t only learn this stuff by asking questions, guys! I hope y'all understand.

Hey my man, I am new to this club, I get my Eclipse this thursday, It seems your problem is your MAF, I had the same problem with my spec v. It is annoying, but it is a simple fix, buy one of of ebay and replace it yourself. Thank me later lol.
take care
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Old 05/20/2008, 03:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
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And the reason why it burned out is because of your short ram. The heat from your engine messed up the setting of the MAF, therefore the hesitating. I had the same friggin problem. After you buy the MAF, buy a CAI (COLD AIR INTAKE). or put back the stock intake. the car will run fine. I actually sold my 02 nissan sentra spec v because of sensor failures everywhere. Im a bioengineer lol not a mechanic but I learned how it works through forums and experimenting
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Old 05/20/2008, 04:21 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Hey my man, I am new to this club, I get my Eclipse this thursday, It seems your problem is your MAF, I had the same problem with my spec v. It is annoying, but it is a simple fix, buy one of of ebay and replace it yourself. Thank me later lol.
take care
He said he already swapped it out with a know good car.
He also drives a Dodge Stratus R/t, not a Sentra.

Hope you get this fixed man. I am looking forward to seeing what fixes the problem so keep us posted. Not saying it is the distributor but I wish mitsubishi would have separated the coil and distributor (or just coil on plug) so you could replace individual components at a lower cost instead of buying the whole thing

Best of luck to you

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Old 05/20/2008, 04:44 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
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And lastly......when I replace the crank positon sensor, should I be checking the condition of the "reluctor rings"?
Just make sure it is clean and not bent.

Quote:
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Do you think it's worthwhile to pull the plenum and swap in the other three injectors I bought, in case one of the rear ones is faulty?
If you had a faulty injector, you would be getting a constant miss from that cylinder. If I suspected an imbalance from my injectors, I would pull the plugs and 'read' them.

Quote:
Also, can someone identify which O2 sensors are ferenced in the data output? i.e. S11 = up/downstream, left/right bank, etc. Also, what do the two separate fuel trims signify? left/right bank??
Didn't your scanner come with an instruction manual. It would explain all that.

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Old 05/20/2008, 06:04 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The fuel trims are controlled by the upstream sensors (O2S11, O2S21).

Bank 1, Sensor 1 is upstream, firewall (right) side.

Bank 2, Sensor 1 is upstream, radiator (left) side.
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Old 05/20/2008, 09:19 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Well,

I;m sorry to say OD MAN, I wish it were that easy! I went to my buddy's, as I said I would and compared live data values. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. The O2 sensors and fuel trims were closely aligned...I remember seeing alot of 0.0's, 1.5's, and 0.7's.......I did notice that my IAT temps were a bit higher than his car, and the "short ram" intake can explain that. I don't know guys.....I should receive my CPS soon.

On my drive home, I stopped to fuel up the car, and when I fired it up, the fuel pressure was idling just below 50 psi, and when driving down the highway, went up as high as 55-57 psi. When I got off the expressway 5 minutes late, the idle pressure dropped to 38 psi and rose to, say 45 psi at full throttle.....no difference in the feel of the car, hesitation, acceleration, etc. SO somewhere along the line the pressure has dropped 10 psi....and has done this multiple times since installing the fuel pressure gauge......
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Old 05/21/2008, 08:24 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1BAD02RT View Post
On my drive home, I stopped to fuel up the car, and when I fired it up, the fuel pressure was idling just below 50 psi, and when driving down the highway, went up as high as 55-57 psi. When I got off the expressway 5 minutes late, the idle pressure dropped to 38 psi and rose to, say 45 psi at full throttle.....no difference in the feel of the car, hesitation, acceleration, etc. SO somewhere along the line the pressure has dropped 10 psi....and has done this multiple times since installing the fuel pressure gauge......
That could definately be a problem. The fuel pressure is not supposed to be over 50psi ever. (unless you've modified your system) 38psi is normal for idle. 47 - 50psi for all other conditions. You can find this information, and troubleshooting tips in the factory service manual on page 13C-5.
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Old 05/27/2008, 12:41 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I got the CPS sensor in the mail, but have yet to install it. I wanted to ask you guys the easiest way to pull the pcm. This is simply because my buddy has an 04 RT 5-speed and I would like to swap the PCM, by chance, before I swap out the CPS. Are there any adverse effects to swapping out the PCM? As far the key "immobilizer" circuit, or any other possible issues? I obviously don't want anythnig to happen to his PCM if I swap the two, and for some reason he can't get his car running right......is this a good idea or do yuo thik I should just go ahead and swap out the sensor and go from there? I ddin't find anything unde the search for swapping the PCM, but it appears the pass. blower motor may need to be removed.....or could I pull off the glovebox door? Any advice would be very helpful!
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Old 05/27/2008, 02:18 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1BAD02RT View Post
I got the CPS sensor in the mail, but have yet to install it. I wanted to ask you guys the easiest way to pull the pcm. This is simply because my buddy has an 04 RT 5-speed and I would like to swap the PCM, by chance, before I swap out the CPS. Are there any adverse effects to swapping out the PCM? As far the key "immobilizer" circuit, or any other possible issues? I obviously don't want anythnig to happen to his PCM if I swap the two, and for some reason he can't get his car running right......is this a good idea or do yuo thik I should just go ahead and swap out the sensor and go from there? I ddin't find anything unde the search for swapping the PCM, but it appears the pass. blower motor may need to be removed.....or could I pull off the glovebox door? Any advice would be very helpful!
PCM = ECU, right? If so, that will only take you 1 minute to remove and nothing else needs to be touched. However, you will not be able to start your car using his ECU as either your key or your ignition cylinder will not match. You would have to have someone hack his ECU's ROM to delete the immob function. Then when you were done you would just flash his original ROM back onto his ECU. You would need a Tactrix cable and ECU Flash software to do that. If you think it is worth the hassle and still have questions then just ask.

Any chance your FPR vac hose has a leak? That is the only thing that comes to mind after scanning through this thread. I think that if you had one injector that was stuck open or faulty then you would trip an SES for misfiring and it would say EXACTLY which cylinder to check.
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Old 05/27/2008, 08:18 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NC[Spyder]GT View Post
Any chance your FPR vac hose has a leak? That is the only thing that comes to mind after scanning through this thread.
Wouldn't that cause a fuel trim malfunction code?
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Old 05/28/2008, 09:10 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Well,

I am going to attempt to swap out the CPS sensor tonight. I am hoing I can do this within a couple of hours. Also want to check the condition of the timing belt, and that it hasn't jumped teeth (highly doubtful!). Can someone give me a crash course on swapping out this sensor? From waht I understand......

1. Put car on jack stands
2. Remove front rigtht wheel
3. Remove fender splash guard
4. Remove accessory belts
5. Remove harmonic balancer
6. Use jack to support right side of engine and remove right engine mount
7. Remove timing belt cover
8. Swap out CPS
9. Reverse of steps 1-8

Atleast this is how I'd do it on the Neon I had.......

Fuel Issue: Sometimes when I start the car, it'll idle at 50psi for about 15 sec. then instantly drop down to 38 (normal).....and YES, it has run upwards of 55psi at times. What does this tell me? Still only a P0300 code. I sure hope this CPS is the culprit.....will know before days end I guess!
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Old 05/28/2008, 09:35 AM   #57 (permalink)
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You shouldn't have to remove the motor mount just to do the CPS.

The high fuel pressure could be caused by a couple of things. The first being the Fuel Pressure Regulator. The other could be a clogged or restricted fuel return line. I know you have the Dodge Stratus, but there is a recall on the Eclipse for a fuel return line issue. It didnt list the Stratus in the recall, but that doesn't mean it couln't happen either.
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Old 05/28/2008, 10:05 AM   #58 (permalink)
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The motor mount doesn't go over the timing belt cover? That's a relief. Also, is there a way to test the fuel return line, like forcing compressed air through there? Anyhow, I will swap the CPS and go from there.......crossing my fingers!

A thought on the fuel: Since the car has started super rich in the past, and actually will blow a dark smoke when I have to pull the fuel pump fuse, so I know it's way exceesive amounts of fuel.....could this foul the plugs and keep them from firing correctly? I will do the fuel pressure test listed in the FSM really quick before I swap out the CPS.....
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Old 05/28/2008, 11:34 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1BAD02RT View Post
Also, is there a way to test the fuel return line, like forcing compressed air through there?
Here, I copied this from the recall notice.




SUBJECT:
FUEL PUMP RETURN LINE RESTRICTION
- SAFETY RECALL CAMPAIGN

PURPOSE

The fuel return line hose fitting on the fuel pump may be restricted, causing excessive fuel pressure to build up in the fuel injection system. Excessive fuel pressure may result in the fuel return hose becoming dislodged from the fitting, resulting in fuel leakage. Fuel leakage in the presence of an ignition source could result in a fire. If there is a restriction in the fuel return hose fitting, a new fuel pump must be installed.

AFFECTED VEHICLES

2003 Galant models produced between 6/16/03 - 9/11/03

2003-04 Eclipse and Eclipse Spyder models produced between 6/16/03 - 9/11/03

CAUTION The pressure that is used to test the fuel return system is limited to 5 psi. If you apply pressure over this amount, serious damage to the fuel tank will result.

Use only a hand pressure pump (such as MITYVAC-II or equivalent) with a vacuum/pressure gauge attached. Do not use shop air.


1. Remove the hose clamp from the fuel return hose on the fuel pressure regulator. Remove the hose from the fitting.

Cover the hose connection with shop towels, to prevent fuel splashing.

Wrap a shop towel around the hose end. If the fuel return port is blocked, pressure will be trapped in the return hose.

2. Using a hand pressure pump, apply 5 psi into the open end of the fuel return hose.

a. If the fuel return hose holds this pressure, this indicates that the return line is 1restricted. Continue with Step 3 to determine whether the restriction is at the fuel pump.

b. If the fuel return hose does not hold this pressure, continue with Step 3 to verify that the fuel return hose is securely connected.

c. Reinstall the fuel return hose securely to the fuel pressure regulator, and reinstall the hose clamp.


3. To minimize gasoline fumes building up in the passenger compartment, open the rear doors and trunk lid (Galant), open the doors and hatch (Eclipse), and lower the convertible top on Eclipse Spyder models.


4. Remove the rear seat cushion and remove the fuel pump access cover.

5. If the fuel return hose did not hold pressure in Step 2, visually inspect the fuel return fitting on the fuel pump to verify that it is securely connected. If it is securely connected, this campaign procedure is completed. Reinstall the fuel pump access cover and the rear seat cushion.

If the fuel return hose held pressure in Step 2, continue with Step 6.


6. Remove the fuel return hose from the return fitting on the fuel pump. Apply 5 psi pressure to the fitting. Pressure should drop immediately.

CAUTION Cover the hose connection with shop towels, to prevent fuel splashing.

a. If the pressure remains in the fuel return fitting, it is restricted and the fuel pump must be replaced. Go to Step 7 for fuel pump replacement.

b. If it is not able to hold pressure, check the fuel return line for kinks or other damage. Repair as necessary.

7. Replace the fuel pump as follows:


a. Disconnect the hose and connector connections. Use special tool MB991480 to remove the fuel pump.


Note the manufacturing code number on the original fuel pump, stamped on the part number decal under the part number. Record this code on the repair order.

b. Replace the fuel pump, using the new, improved pump listed in the PARTS INFORMATION section of this bulletin. Refer to Group 13C of the appropriate service manual.

c. For ease of installation, install the new gasket to the fuel tank, lubricate the gasket inside diameter with soapy water, and then install the fuel pump. Torque the nut to 57 +/- 7 ft/lbs (77 +/- 10 Nm).


CAUTION Do not tilt the fuel pump module when installing.

Ensure that the alignment mark on the fuel pump module is lined up with the mark on the tank.

Do not allow the fuel pump module to turn when tightening the nut.

Be sure that the gasket does not fold over.

8. Reinstall the fuel pump access cover and the rear seat cushion.

Last edited by rc_maniac; 05/29/2008 at 04:18 PM. Reason: removed illustrations
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Old 05/30/2008, 01:57 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I am going to check into the fuel system tonight. The other night, I wasd going to attempt to swap out that CPS, but got to the Harmonic Balancer nut and I don't have any sockets big enough for it......So I did a synthetic oil and filter change. I also looked through the FSM, and checked out a few things. The fuel issue bothers me. Tonight, I am going to get some vacuum line and jump the vacuum port on the fpr directly to the intake manifold, and see if that drops the pressure down to where it should be.

From what I understand, the more vacuum (at idle w/ the tb butterfly closed) pulled equates to a lower fuel pressure, and the less vacuum does the opposite. So if there is a leak in the vacuum line, the fuel pressure should be running higher than normal, correct?

Also, I may try to swap out my buddy's FPR over to my car and see if that helps. Its jsut weird that the car "randomly" will run at about 10psi higher than normal, and then suddenly drop back down to where it should be.

If neither of these two thoughs remedy the problem, I may then go after the return line possibly being clogged. But reading the how-to, makes me want to try that last.
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