Timing belt job, problems/questions

[HRT]

Hello everyone, I'm a longtime wrench-spinner, new Eclipse owner- just bought a 2002 GT (6g72 v6 & manual trans) with 130,000 miles on it Of course with that mileage I knew I had to do the timing belt ASAP; I've done timing belt jobs before, but never on this engine. These forums helped a lot with the 6g72, and thanks rc_maniac & PharmEcis for the How To: Change the Timing Belt on the V6 *WITH PICTURES* thread, the pictures and information came in handy!

I started the job this weekend and ran into some problems/questions- I've already used the search button, but couldn't find messages about my specific questions. (Hopefully I'm in the right forum to ask these questions?) I know this is a long message but I figure it's better to give too much information than not enough; any help you guys can give me on these 7 questions would be appreciated!


1. Crank sprocket stuck to balancer/pulley? After loosening the center bolt, I figured the balancer would fall right off without tools, or just a tap of a rubber mallet- it didn't. On closer look, it would slide along the crank snout but wouldn't come off - because the crank gear was stuck inside the edge of the pulley! Luckily the timing belt kept the gear (and pulley) from sliding all the way out of the engine, otherwise I would've ruined my valve timing.

I had to remove the upper covers, find #1/tdc compression, and align the cam marks. Then I slid the balancer+crank sprocket "combination" along the crank- but not completely off- which allowed me to rotate the lower cover towards the firewall. Then I was able to put a wrench on the tensioner pulley bolt bracket, which gave me slack in the belt. Then I pulled the balancer+sprocket off the crank and removed the belt.

Apparently the previous owner (or mechanic) had the same problem I did! I found hammer marks on the crank sprocket's teeth (some teeth have sharp edges from their hammer), along with some chips in the pulley itself. One of the v-belt grooves is chipped off too! I tried to separate the gear with a rubber mallet but they wouldn't come apart. So I bought a new balancer and have ordered a new crank gear. I probably needed a new balancer anyway due to mileage (although the isolation ring looked OK)...

My question is, has anybody ever seen the harmonic balancer pulley and crank sprocket get stuck together? I couldn't find one message about it. Any idea why this happened, are they supposed to be a press-fit together? Will this happen with my new parts too- e.g, will I have this problem again in another 60K miles?

2. Water pump needs sealant? I bought an Aisin pump (came with pipe o-ring and metal gasket) which I read is the OE brand. When I removed the old pump (the previous owner/mechanic only changed the front half), I found sealant on all the water pump bolts' threads. I thought the bolts (and gasket) didn't need sealant, none of them seem to go through a water jacket. Do these water pump bolts need sealant? Was the previous owner/mechanic just being ambitious?

3. Motor mount studs came out?. When I removed the front motor mount (by the passenger strut tower), when I unbolted the nuts, the two studs also came out. Has anyone had that happen? I'm thinking of using loctite blue on the studs where they go into the mount bracket so they don't come out again, sound good? (Or should I just go for loctite red?) Also, the factory shop manual seems to say those nuts should be replaced, are they locking nuts? (Maybe I'll put lockwashers under the nuts...)

4. Crankshaft Position Sensor. Is it a good idea to change this part, is it a common failure on the 2002 GT v6/manual? I'm assuming it's the original part. I've had no problems with the car, no codes/lights/etc. My instinct says to leave it alone because it's lasted for so long. But if it's a common problem I'll change it...? You guys know these cars best, what would you do? Most of the searches I find turn up a camshaft position sensor in the distributor, not the crank sensor.

5. Crank Position Sensor's disc (or ring/wheel/blade?) & crank spacer. I found a message where someone's car didn't run well after their timing belt change, because their mechanic didn't line up the pins for their CPS disk, and the disk got ruined. I found another message where someone didn't line up their own pins. On the 3-spoke wheel, I see the two pins that mate into the rear of the crank sprocket. But I see there are two holes in the CPS wheel, and the same two holes match in the crank spacer. Are there supposed to be pins between the CPS wheel and spacer? And when I put the CPS wheel back on, since I'm at TDC/compression, one of the fins should be straight under the CPS sensor right?

6. Changing cam seals- The right (or "rear") cam seal is oozing oil, so I'll change both cams' seals. Hopefully the surfaces are OK. I never changed cam seals with the cam installed before. I'm using a Lisle strap wrench to hold the cam gear solid while I pull on the center sprocket bolt with a breaker bar- but that bolt is TIGHT, it's hard to keep the cam from moving. I'm afraid of bending the valves if the wrench slips.

My Haynes manual says "rotate crank 3 degrees BTC to prevent valve damage if cam is turned accidentally"- but the factory manual doesn't say that. Does that sound right? Will 3 degrees backwards rotation protect all valves from damage? Or, any other tips on changing cam seals without removing the cams?

7. Crank seal- looks like it's seeping oil too, so I'll change it... any tips for this part?

Thanks everyone for any help/tips you can provide!

[Lethal1ty17]

1. they can get stuck/rusted on there after so many miles, just gotta keep tapping it or use some wd-40 or penetrating lubricant. you can try putting a tiny amount of antiseize between the parts if you are really worried about it (some people do this for wheels) but honestly i would just make sure the mating surfaces are clean and not worry.

2. it doesnt require sealant with the new gasket, however 10 cents worth of careful sealant placement can save you a possible headache later and give you more peace of mind.

3. the nuts and shafts can corrode weld themselves together and jam after so many years, i had this same thing happen on mine. this is where soaking in penetrating lube can help too for future reference. the nuts are just basic nuts if i remember correctly and dont need to be replaced. loctite blue...you might want to replace those engine mounts later with prothane mounts which are a fantastic upgrade. i myself have some on my car along with a majority of the guys here.

4. leave it alone unless it goes bad

i cant say much for 5, 6, and 7 because i dont have much experience with that but i hope some of that might have helped a little bit.

[Silvertune]

1) After 130k its not uncommon to have them seize together. To that degree it is a bit strange but not unheard of. You did the right thing in getting new. Without a good balancer this engines life ends hastily and painfully.

2) I didn't know Aisin was OE, I figured it was knock off crap so I bought Gates (Bosche is good too) but then again I didn't read anything on it. There shouldn't be any sealant required, a lot of mechanics use it as a backup in case something didn't go perfectly so they can get the car back out and make it the customers problem again. The only thing that should be on the bolts is blue thread locker. That is standard on most modern mitsubishi stuff.

3) Again after so many miles and being tightened down so hard the studs and nuts can seize together and effectively pull the stud out instead of getting the bolt off. This happened to me and my transmission mount. Huge PITA. Put the studs in a vice and crank the nuts off then run the studs through a tap and the nuts over a die to clean the thread out. To my knowledge the nuts don't need replacing (I've had mine off a bunch of times and have no issues) unless they're damaged for whatever reason.

4) I'm actually contemplating the same thing while I am putting my motor together. If its dirty I'd simply clean it (mines covered with crap because the front seal was meh). Otherwise if you really want go ahead and change it out. Getting to it isn't a huge deal but if it goes out it may very well strand you. You also have almost double the mileage mine does.

5) The wheel and spacer have the two holes which hold it rigid on the sprocket. However there should be a notch in the center hole that fits over a key on the crank so you can't put them in wrong.

6) Getting the cam gears off without an impact gun is dicy. If you brace it with a bar in the gear you can crack the gear but it is slips you can indeed damage the valves with as much torque as you need to get the bolt off. I'd just be very careful since you don't have an impact gun. Just make sure when you reinstall the cam that you time it right again with the new belt.

7) Mine did this too. My engine is completely torn down for rebuild so I have the oil pump off to do the replacement. Getting the seal out without pulling the pump off the crank is going to be pretty much impossible, its in there TIGHT. Took me a big ass screw driver to pry mine out without harming anything. I forget if you can pull the oil pump without pulling the timing brackets and water pump but if you can that's what I'd do. Otherwise I know there are sleeve kits for correcting this. Basically the sleeve goes around the crank under the sealing surface is under more pressure thus sealing better.

[HRT]

Thanks guys that's awesome information- I didn't expect to get replies so quickly.

I'm relieved that you both have heard of the balancer and crank sprocket getting frozen/stuck together like mine did- I have no idea why I couldn't find a message about it anywhere. Lethality I like that idea about the antisieze, I think I'll use a small bit where they slide into each other. (Maybe even some zinc/anti-rust weld-thru primer on the new balancer's inner surface, which is bare metal.) Glad too that I'm not the only one that had the studs pull out of the mount bracket, and that it's OK to re-use those nuts. And I'm very happy you both said to leave the CPS sensor alone- aftermarket that's an $80 part! Thanks!

Lethality for the water pump sealant you're just talking about putting some on the bolts right? I'm actually replacing that front motor mount with a stock aftermarket (Anchor) one now. My original was torn, according to club3g.com messages that's why my car squeaked every morning! I see why it tore, looks like a poor design (engine "hangs" from the mount instead of "sitting" on it). But if it blows out again, I'll do the poly upgrade for that one mount.

Silvertune there's supposed to be blue loctite on the water pump threads? Do these really back out? I haven't seen loctite on a bolt yet, not even on the big center crank bolt.

5) I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "The wheel and spacer have the two holes which hold it rigid on the sprocket". Here's what I see if I hold the CPS wheel in my hand (not on engine)- around the shaft hole, besides the notch for the woodruff key, at 12 and 6 o'clock, it has two pins that go "forward" to the sprocket, at 9 and 3 o'clock there are two small holes. The spacer has two small holes at 9 and 3 o'clock also. Are the small holes on the blade and spacer supposed to be connected with pins? Because mine weren't...

6) Yeah I wish I could jam an impact gun in that spot under the hood, I found a message where one guy drilled through his strut tower to get an impact and long extension in there- but it didn't work and he used a breaker bar anyway. That's why I was wondering about what Haynes Manual said, rotating the crank 3 degrees BTC to lower the pistons down- but I don't know what that does to the pistons on the right (rear) side!

7) Thanks for the heads-up that the crank seal is going to be wedged in there tight; now I know what to be prepared for. I think I can take the oil pump off- but I'd have to reseal the oil pan, and of course buy a new oil pump. I'm not sure if I want to go down that road!And hopefully there's no groove worn into my crank snout (or camshafts), I've seen sleeve kits but never tried one.

Although; hm, maybe it does make sense to replace the oil pump with 130,000 miles on the clock (especially now that you guys saved me $80 by not changing the "still-working" CPS sensor). Do these pump gears get worn out? (I hate how there's no oil pressure gauge on this car, I might have to add one.)

The upper and lower pans can be taken down without removing any crossmembers right? Does the upper-pan-to-engine get a gasket? I'm wondering if the oil pump/crank seal might be a job for another time. Cam seals now, oil pump (with new crank seal) later. What do you think?

[Lethal1ty17]

When I do anything regarding a gasket, I usually get a tube of RTV silicone and put a very, very thin layer on the mating surface and allow it to get tacky before installing and torquing down. I guess I misread that you meant actually applying it to the threads on the bolts, in which case I personally wouldn't but that's at your discretion.

Also, as more of a preventative maintenance/overall drive quality improver, I would go ahead and replace all of your mounts with the Prothane mounts if you have the time/money to do so. They really do make a decent difference.

Here is the entire Prothane set for the V6


And here is what your stock mounts will eventually do.


And I wouldn't replace the oil pump unless you are getting problems from it either. I believe the upper pan uses a thick bead of silicone (looks like it).



I know the lower pan just uses a basic $7 gasket, and I also siliconed that baby in there too.

[HRT]

Thanks for the pics, didn't know that all those mounts came in one kit. Yes that's what my bad front mount looks like. The aftermarket design (solid circles) makes more sense to me than that factory upside-down-Vee design. Didn't realize too that the lower oil pan is actually a sump, that's pretty cool.

Ya know I just realized I can't change the oil pump- the engine right now is being held up with a jack and piece of wood under the oil pan! So yeah I won't be changing the oil pump- that is, unless I screw up the seal bore... which I won't LOL

Originally Posted by HRT

5) I'm sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "The wheel and spacer have the two holes which hold it rigid on the sprocket". Here's what I see if I hold the CPS wheel in my hand (not on engine)- around the shaft hole, besides the notch for the woodruff key, at 12 and 6 o'clock, it has two pins that go "forward" to the sprocket, at 9 and 3 o'clock there are two small holes. The spacer has two small holes at 9 and 3 o'clock also. Are the small holes on the blade and spacer supposed to be connected with pins? Because mine weren't...

Looks like I have more problems- I just got my replacement sprocket (MD184894) in the mail. On the back, where it goes towards the CPS wheel, this new sprocket has two pins installed on it! My original sprocket doesn't have pins there, just holes. My CPS wheel has pins on it that are "smashed flat" on the back of the wheel- almost as if to keep them from falling out. I can fit the CPS pins into the original sprocket's holes, but the keyways don't align. And of course I don't have any pins that go between the CPS wheel and spacer.

Are all three keyways supposed to line up? Because they didn't- when I removed the sprocket, I had to spin the CPS wheel and spacer so they'd line up with the keyway.

Here's what I have, all with the key notch up at 12 o'clock:

Looking at "back" of crank gear- key notch at 12 o'clock, pin holes at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock
Looking at "front" of CPS wheel- key notch at 12 o'clock, holes at 9 and 3, pins facing "me" at 1 and 7 (??)
Looking at spacer- key at 12, holes at 3 and 9

Now I can rotate the CPS wheel and the CPS wheel's pins fit into the crank sprocket. Of course, keyway doesn't align.

Any idea what's up here? Anybody have a picture of their CPS wheel and spacer and crank sprocket? Could the previous owner/mechanic have lost the pins for the crank sprocket, so he drilled the CPS wheel at 1 & 7 and installed his own pins?? Are the pins on the new crank sprocket supposed to go through both the CPS and the spacer at the same time?

Lots of questions I know, guys I really appreciate the help, thanks!

[HRT]

I can't find a picture of CPS wheel/blade/disc anywhere... think I should be grinding off those pins that are on it?

[HRT]

An update, on closer look I think those pins on the cps sensor wheel were welded by the factory. Its a spot weld, not a mig/tig weld, no hole was drilled- much more precise than anything someone (especially a local garage or dealership) could do.

[davila825]

"5. Crank Position Sensor's disc (or ring/wheel/blade?) & crank spacer. I found a message where someone's car didn't run well after their timing belt change, because their mechanic didn't line up the pins for their CPS disk, and the disk got ruined. I found another message where someone didn't line up their own pins. On the 3-spoke wheel, I see the two pins that mate into the rear of the crank sprocket. But I see there are two holes in the CPS wheel, and the same two holes match in the crank spacer. Are there supposed to be pins between the CPS wheel and spacer? And when I put the CPS wheel back on, since I'm at TDC/compression, one of the fins should be straight under the CPS sensor right"


could somebody elaborate on this.....is there supposed to be pins to go through the spacer, wheel and sprocket. does anybody got any pictures? thanks

[anthony4901]

my harmonic balancer and sprocket were stuck together... heat/rust welded together.. no one loved this car before me, it had the stock timing belt I'll see if i can figure out pix on this .. I can't believe my belt didn't snap before I got to it.. I used a gear puller obviously wrecked the balancer getting it out but I didnt care I went to mitsu dealer and boom new balancer and sprocket also replaced cps while there and water pump. The water pump sucks if you do it right !!!

[davila825]

welll make sure to get some pics up

[HRT]

Originally Posted by davila825

could somebody elaborate on this.....is there supposed to be pins to go through the spacer, wheel and sprocket. does anybody got any pictures? thanks

Yeah here's the deal, two parts, I'll try to keep it very detailed:

1. The way it's supposed to be- the back of the crank sprocket/gear will have two small pins. Those pins go into matching holes that are in the crank sensor wheel and the spacer. So as you're looking at the front of the crankshaft, staring at the gear, the pins go "backward" from the gear, thru the 3-finger sensor wheel, and through the spacer. That way when the gear turns, the gear also turns the 3-finger sensor wheel, which keeps the spark timing perfect.

When you reassemble everything, make sure those pins go through the 3-finger sensor wheel and spacer correctly! Mine kept sliding apart, I had to be very careful putting them back on. I think this is where those other people had trouble- they didn't see the pins, and didn't put them thru the holes, and when they started the engine, the pins shredded.

2. My car was messed with- the pins were (incorrectly) welded on the 3-finger sensor wheel and went forward into holes in the crank gear! I had no pins at all going through the spacer. Basically I had to buy a new gear to solve the problem.

I thought I wrote a reply to update everyone! I guess I didn't? I'll write an update later (and try to get some pics together)- but the new gear (with correct pins from Mitsubishi) solved the problem. After that, the reassembly was by-the-book.

[HRT]

Originally Posted by anthony4901

my harmonic balancer and sprocket were stuck together... heat/rust welded together.. no one loved this car before me, it had the stock timing belt I'll see if i can figure out pix on this .. I can't believe my belt didn't snap before I got to it.. I used a gear puller obviously wrecked the balancer getting it out but I didnt care I went to mitsu dealer and boom new balancer and sprocket also replaced cps while there and water pump. The water pump sucks if you do it right !!!

Thanks for the info- that's good to hear another person had the balancer & sprocket stuck/rusted together too. Did the dealer recommend the CPS replacement or did you want it done? (I didn't change mine... but as you can see above, I thought about it...)

[HRT]

OK as promised (and 2 months later, oops) here's my update! Everything below is solved, thanks to guidance from Silvertune, Lethal1ty17, 01silvrsurfer, and all the other club3g messages I found that helped! Here's what I found out; this is long (many details) but hopefully it helps someone else out some day.

1. My crankshaft sprocket/gear being stuck to balancer pulley: Like the guys said, this happened due to rust- it wasn't a lot of rust though, just a slight "dusting" - and I found where the rust came from. The lower timing belt cover is supposed to have a gasket where the cover touches the engine oil pan- the gasket was missing- it had deteriorated and crumbled to dust! So every time the previous owner drove in the rain, water was splashing up onto the crank sprocket. When I put the cover back on, I used some black RTV at the bottom edge to seal it off to the oil pan- it should work better than a gasket ever would.

I wanted to prevent the new balancer and new sprocket from sticking together again. Unfortunately the new gear wouldn't fit into the new balancer by hand (very tight). I used some 600 grit paper to sand the mating edge of the balancer down a bit. I basically just took the sharp edge down (looked like a casting edge). Then I could wiggle the crank gear & balancer pulley together/apart by hand.

I sprayed a thin coating of weld-through zinc primer (can find it at a welding store) on the bare metal of the balancer, and put a very thin coating of anti-sieze on the sprocket's front surface where it goes into the balancer. I made sure NOT to get ANY anti-sieze on the gear's teeth (where the timing belt goes). And I made sure that I could still wiggle the gear/balancer together/apart by hand.

2. Water pump sealant= used no sealant, just a new factory metal gasket. I cleaned the old sealant out of the bolt holes. Yes I changed the o-ring at the back too- I put it on "dry" over the pipe, then moistened the outside of the o-ring with antifreeze, then pushed the pump+gasket over the pipe- the pump snapped over the o-ring, and I torqued the bolts to spec in a cross pattern.

3. Motor mount studs came out: I put the studs back into the mount bracket with the loctite blue (medium strength). I used the regular "put two nuts on the stud" method to install the studs. I found out that yes, the factory nuts are self-locking! To prevent my same problem (removing the motor mount nuts = removes the studs too) from happening in the future again, I used new non-locking nuts (M12 1.25 pitch) with lock washers. Yes this transfers the "locking action" from the stud to the mount surface, but I plan on checking the torque of these every so often. So I don't recommend using regular nuts to anyone else b/c they could loosen and you wouldn't know... then one day your engine falls out on you, if you do this, you have to check their torque every now and then! (Probably why the factory used locking nuts...)

That motor mount bracket in the middle of the timing belt was a PAIN. Just like the FAQ "v6 with pictures" page said, I had to install it before tensioning the belt. To get all the bolts back in, I had to lower/raise the engine a bit AND unbolt/move the power steering reservoir. (That's how I got the mount bracket out in the first place by the way.) I also had to use a 14mm crow foot adapter on my torque wrench to be able to torque some of those mount-bracket-to-engine bolts to spec.

4. Crankshaft position sensor- I didn't change it. Hopefully I won't ever have to. I think I can do it on the side of the road or in a parking lot though... as long as I can buy all the correct tools of course! I was careful to only torque it to spec (just a few inch pounds) and route the sensor wire correctly.

5. Crankshaft position sensor disc and spacer and pins: As I said above, my new gear came with pins in it! That's when I found out "my" setup wasn't stock. So I removed the someone-welded-them-on pins from my CPS sensor disc (reluctor wheel) with pliers (they came off really easy, just twisted off). And just like everyone said, the new crank sprocket's pins fit through the CPS disc's holes and the crank spacer's holes- with the keyways aligned!

An interesting thing- welding the pins to the disc might be seen as a "homemade" way to advance the ignition timing. But the pins were welded "straight up". I'm still not sure why my disc was like that. Even if someone ruined the original roll pins, it'd be easier just to buy a roll pin assortment and put new pins into the crank sprocket.

Anyway, to make sure all three (gear+disc+spacer) stayed aligned perfectly, before I put anything onto the engine, I put the disc and spacer onto the back of the gear, and swaged the rollpins' edges slightly outward with a straight pick. That kept them all stuck together and I slid all three onto the crank as one piece. (I think that's why some people ruined their pins- they tried to align the pieces together by putting them on the crank one by one.) Note too that the crank sprocket WILL stick out a little bit past the end of the crankshaft snout- the picture above from Lethal1ty17 helped me with this.

6. Camshaft seals- ha, no way! I put a strap wrench on the gear to hold it solid, and my dad turned the center bolt counter-clockwise- we put a LOT of force on those parts but the bolt wouldn't turn.

To prepare, I did rotate the engine, very carefully and slowly, checking for interference counter-clockwise by "three gear teeth". This is mentioned in the factory manual too! Check it out (2000-2002 manual), page 11D-12, ">>C<< Timing Belt Installation" Step #2 from Tearstone at Tearstone Performance - 2000-2002 Eclipse Service Manual

The right (rear) cam sprocket was loaded by the valvesprings. I put a wrench on the center bolt, and, while expecting to "catch" the wrench (hard to explain- basically I wasn't going to let the wrench get away from me), I rotated the wrench counter clockwise- there was a "CLICK" and the wrench tried to spin fast- but I was expecting it to do this (do NOT use a ratchet!!) and I stopped the wrench from moving before the valves slammed into the piston. (So I went from pushing the wrench to immediately pulling on the wrench as it snapped back.) Then I turned the wrench back clockwise (fighting the valve springs) to the timing mark. Then I turned the wrench more clockwise while "catching" the wrench- and sure enough it tried to snap FAST clockwise on me (DON'T use a ratchet!), but I was ready for it.

The left (front) cam sprocket wasn't loaded by valvesprings. Turning it clockwise = it hit the piston right away. But by rotating the crank three teeth counter-clockwise, I was able to turn the left/front cam sprocket a bit more.

Anyway, I didn't change the cam seals. The risk of damage (to either the cam gear OR the valves) was too great. Besides, the right/front seal is OK, and the left/rear seal is only oozing oil, not spraying it. (Maybe it's only seeping oil because I'm using synthetic oil, I might change back to conventional oil...) I'll have to keep a watch on it. In the future to change it I'll have to lock that gear down with a screwdriver or weld up a homemade jig (and risk cracking/shattering the gear). Or I could pull the head, get it on the bench, and use an impact on that center bolt.

7. Crank seal. This one I did change. I bought Lisle tool 58430 Shaft Type Seal Puller and it worked awesome! I had to remove the hook from the tool, insert the hook under the seal, then reconnect the hook to the tool again. One push and "pop" out the seal came, no damage to the crank. I used Miller tool MD998717 SPX Miller Special Tools | Detail: MD998717 - INSTALLER, SEAL to install the new crank seal. Basically this tool gives you a "ramp" that goes on the crank snout, makes it very easy to get the seal over the crank's edge. I made sure to put assembly lube on the center of the crank seal, the outside edge of the seal didn't get anything (stayed dry).

Funny thing is, the original seal was seated back in the bore by about 1/16 inch. The factory special tool only allows the seal to be seated flush with the bore. I tried to countersink the seal by using a regular seal installer (actually a length of pipe) and I ruined the seal (caved it in) by hammering it in too far. So I pulled the new/ruined seal back out, bought another new seal, and installed the new seal using "just" the special tool. Oh well, lesson learned = "trust the special tool".

"Bonus" fun stuff that may help someone else:

A. I changed all the valve timing parts- belt, idler pulley, tension pulley, hydraulic tensioner. As the factory manual says, to tension the belt I used an inch-pounds wrench and Miller tool MD998767 SPX Miller Special Tools | Detail: MD998767 - WRENCH, TIMING BELT (note this is a 1/4 inch drive, not 3/8th). I waited 15 minutes (not just 5) after rotating the engine twice, I hear this is to allow the hydraulic tensioner enough time to "relax". It took two tries to get the proper tension.

B. To be able to turn the engine with the pulley off, a spacer is needed between the crank and bolt, or "Miller special tool MD99879". Lowes' Home Improvement had it! They had a drawer of metal spacers for 75 cents each, so I bought two. Specs were 5/8 ID x 7/8 OD x 1 inch long.

C. To find TDC #1, I had to find TDC/compression of #6 first- so I had to pull the #6 plug. The gap was wider than 0.60! It's a Champion so definitely not stock. Wires look original too. I'm curious if plugs 1,3,5 are originals or Champions! (Previous owner/mechanic might've just changed the ones that were easy to get to.) I'll be changing those all soon; I have no idea how long they've been in there.

D. I changed the heater & radiator hoses at the same time. There was an excessive amount of corrosion buildup on the aluminum radiator hose outlets - so much that the clamps were spread to max and coolant was oozing out of the edge of the hose. I removed the corrosion with a wire brush. I also changed the thermostat, cleaned the throttle body and TB plate (both were gunked up so bad the TB plate was sticking shut!), and replaced the v-belts.

E. To get the center crank bolt torqued, since I have a manual transmission, I just put the stick in 4th gear, stood on the brake, and my dad tightened the center bolt to torque. The factory service manual said to put oil on the bolt threads- but I forgot to do it, besides, I never oiled the crank bolt threads on any other car. I drew alignment marks on the crank bolt head with a paint pen as an easy visual that the bolt might be loosening. I'll recheck torque in another week or so. I also made marks across the new balancer's center hub/isolation ring/outer ring, so I can tell if the balancer ever slips.

F. The engine started up right away! But it was making a LOT of loud clicking/tapping noises. All the hydraulic lifters were dry of oil, either from sitting for so long, or by turning the engine by hand, or a combination of both. So that's 24 valves clicking! Right away I thought "it's just the lifters" but after all that work I did panic a little at first! The clicking started to go away as I was refilling the coolant (engine had to get warm with rad cap off), and went away completely after my test drive.

G. After I got back from the test run, I smelled rubber burning under the hood. Of course I thought the new timing belt was shredding. Nope, turns out, the smell was just my new upper radiator hose.

H. With the new "original style" rubber engine mount on the passenger side, the car doesn't squeak anymore in the morning. Shifts are firmer and the car really wants to break the tires loose, I'm definitely getting more power to the wheels. If this mount breaks again I'll do the polyurethane bushing for it.

Thanks again everyone! Best part is, now I don't have to worry the belt is going to snap anymore

[mits00b]

Hello HRT, I am doing a timing belt maintenance on the 2000 V6. Your thread and summary has been most useful to me, hope you don't mind me hijacking it for the purpose of adding few more questions I might have related to the timing belt job that I'm doing.

So here are the questions that I have thus far:

1. Does the coolant need to be drained in order to change the water pump?
2. All the gaskets on the timing covers were crumbled and fell off after I took covers off. Is it ok to use some sort of gasket maker for the purpose of making those gaskets?
3. After removing the timing covers I discovered that there is some slack in the old timing belt between the cams and as it wraps under the water pump, (I can rotate the water pump by hand with little resistance from the belt), the belt is tight in other spots, is that normal? There were no cooling problems in the car at all.

On a side note I wish people were putting stickers under the hood indicating date and mileage when an important maintenance was done...

This is what I got so far, thanks in advance for help!

[HRT]

Sure, no problem:

1. Yes, otherwise it'll all spill out on you when you remove the pump

2. Yes, those gaskets are only to keep dirt/dust/water/etc out, blue/black RTV would work great. Might be harder to disassemble later on though.

3. Sounds like it's a good thing you're doing the job now b/c the old belt/tensioner is definitely worn out. .Yes some areas of the belt can have harder tension than others b/c some pulleys are "pulling" on each other and others aren't. Example = the crankshaft pulls the belt "towards" it- so there'd be a lot of tension "before" the crank pulley, a little less tension "after" the pulley- but you should never be able to notice this. That's what the tensioner/idlers are for.

When you're done you shouldn't have any slack like that with the new belt. If you do have slack that means you have to re-do the tensioning procedure.

[eclipsegt1717]

sry to get off topic but wasnt sure if anyone knew an answer for my problem... i just rebuild my 6g72 and its not throwing any codes but the headers are getting a lil red at idel and when i drive normal at like 2k or 2500 rpms they get reallyred not sure about a fix let me know

[zakmartin]

Originally Posted by eclipsegt1717

sry to get off topic but wasnt sure if anyone knew an answer for my problem... i just rebuild my 6g72 and its not throwing any codes but the headers are getting a lil red at idel and when i drive normal at like 2k or 2500 rpms they get reallyred not sure about a fix let me know

What kind of headers? What other modifications were done to your car?

[HRT]

Wow that's definitely off topic. You should start a new message about it instead, more people will see it and you'll probably get more answers

[eclipsegt1717]

i had it bored .20 over and ported and polished headeds... thats about it... they a agoa yearre obx racing headers purchased about

[Fin3G]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I figured I'd borrow this one. Hope you don't mind.

So, I'm in a process of changing my timing belt for my 01 GT. I've read the how-to in the garage multiple times and I took my time and was very careful not to damage anything while doing it.

Before I removed the old timing belt I lined up the timing marks on cams and on crank. I was under the assumption that it would be ok to remove the belt and that cams would not turn. I removed the hydraulic tensioner and as I was removing the tensioner pulley, the cam closest to the firewall suddenly turned.
I checked and it's about 30 degrees before the timing mark.

Now my question is that what are the chances that valve(s) hit the piston? Is the tension force strong enough to damage the valves?

Thanks!

[HRT]

I wouldn't panic, you're probably OK. The valves could've hit the piston, and the valve springs are pretty strong, but you probably just nicked the outside edge; the valvestem and valve face are probably still good. There's only one way to tell; reassemble the engine and see how it runs. If a valve did bend it won't destroy the motor; you'd just have no compression on the one cylinder (loss of power). Unfortunately to do a compression check back there you'd have to remove the intake (and have the new timing belt put on).

Remember that on startup, the whole valvetrain is going to click/tap a LOT - that's normal, caused by the lifters' lack of oil. When oil gets into the adjusters again the tapping will get quiet again (mine was quiet after I came back from my test drive, see above). So if you hear a lot of tapping it doesn't mean the valve's bent.

Put a wrench (not ratchet) on that sprocket bolt and slowly move it back so the dot aligns straight up again. It should stay there. If not, just align the sprocket as you're putting the belt on. Use a few medium-size Binder clips - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to pinch the belt to the outside edge of both cam sprockets to help you during the install/alignment process.

Let us know how it works out!

[Danielv2008]

I had the same exact thing just happen to me. On a 3.5 Diamante though. Took off the timing belt and all the brackets and pulleys and called it a day. Come the next day I go to remove the cam sprockets and shit! the rear bank turned back 30deg like yours. Put it all together and it's running perfect!

Tip for installing new belt. You cannot install the new belt with the timing marks all exact. You have to either turn the crank sprocket back a tooth, or that pesky rear cam forward a tooth. Then when you go to tighten the tensioner pulley everything should line up.

Also that stupid motor mount bracket must be installed before you attempt to put the new timing belt on. I maneuvered the bracket into place, tightened the idler, then slipped the belt around the bracket and idler and tightened the rest of the bolts.

[Fin3G]

Finally had some time to put it together again. Fortunately no damage was caused to valves as it started right up and ran fine Thanks for helping me out!

[rlager]

So...I have replaced my timing belt and I'm at the step where it says to turn the crank over two times by hand and wait 5 minutes. I'm unable to turn the engine over even once. The crank will turn probably about a quarter turn forward then stops. It's not a compression kind of resistance - it's feels more like a mechanical resistance and there's no going forward.

Some backround info...when I went to pull the crank pully off in preparation for lining up the crank gear timing mark - it was fused to the crank gear and I ended up pulling both of them (the pulley and the crank gear) off leaving the old timing belt still on the car without the ability to really line anything up correctly.

So I ended up just pulling the old belt off - then after getting a new crank gear and pulley - lined up the crank gear first, then turned the cam gears until their marks lined up.

It seems though that something is off because I should be able to turn the engine by hand now that the new belt is on no?

Is there an "easy" way to make sure that the cam gears and crank gear are correctly lined up?

As it looks now I'm going to have to pull off the new belt and basically start over, but would like to try to get things lined up correctly this time.

Thanks in advance...

[HRT]

If you had lined up all the gears (cam and crank) with the belt off, I thought it would've worked too. You lined the cams' marks so they matched the notches "straight up", and the crank so it's "dot" on the tooth matches the raised notch in the oil pump (around a 2o-'clock position)? Could you have lined up the wrong piece on the crank gear to the oil pump?

How's the reluctor wheel (three-finger'd disk), is it lined up to pass thru the crank position sensor? Or is it hitting the CPS?

[rlager]

Good question. I'm pulling it back apart now and I'm going to check the cps disc. I had pulled it out earlier after the gear came off with the pully and it seemed ok (not bent, etc.) but I'll take another look.

[rlager]

I've pulled the timing belt off and have relined up my marks (pictures attatched). The CPS disc spins freely and is not catching on anything. I was also able to rotate the crank by hand (socket) one complete revolution. There was some resistance but not like when the belt is moving all three. Could I have not tentioned the belt correctly causing it to slip teeth and throw off the timing which caused the interference? I had clips on the belt on the cam gears so I'm thinking they wouldn't have slipped at that point but perhaps when I took the clips off to make the attempt to rotate the motor twice?

Here is the crank gear lined up...



The "rear" camshaft gear (closest to the firewall)



The "front" camshaft gear



Not sure if it matters, but with the cam gears in this position - the distributor rotor is pointing to what would be plug number 1 on the cap.

Thanks again for your help!

[HRT]

Glad to hear the CPS wheel is "locked in" to the gear and isn't binding up. A few people on the forums didn't line up the pins on the gear to the holes in the CPS wheel, and when the motor started, they sheared the pins off and the engine stopped running (CPS stopped working).

And yes #1 on the cap is perfect, b/c right now, your crank gear is mark'd for #1 TDC, and the CPS wheel is just starting to slide past the CPS sensor to trigger the #1 spark.

The marks look good, I suppose it's possible some extreme slack could've caused interference. Was the hydraulic tensioner putting tension against the belt? Is it spinning ok now?

[rlager]

Going to get it all back together (paying special attention to the slack) and I'll let you know. It's good to know my marks are lined up correctly. It's not possible to be "180 degrees" off on the cam wheel marks is it? As long as their lined up it should be ok? At the time I was attemping to rotate the engine the tensioner was putting tension on the pulley.

[HRT]

Nope because this is valve timing (cam to crank), not ignition timing (ignition to compression stroke). As long as the marks are good (and the belt is the correct one) then everything should spin, which creates your intake/compression/power/exhaust strokes.

With ignition timing, the crank spins twice as fast as the cams (the crank rotates twice for every one spin of the cam). So being 180 out means the crank's only spun once, and the compression stroke isn't at the #1 cylinder. But right now, without any valve timing, there isn't any compression to worry about yet.

[rlager]

Well that's good to know. Unfortunately it's not going well .

I've installed the new belt, did a preliminary tensioning, by putting the tensioner pulley on the belt and tightning down the bolt. After that it says to rotate the crankshaft a quarter turn counterclockwise and then forward again (to TDC I'm assuming) and verify that all marks are still aligned.

Mine are not aligned. Both cam sprockets are two teeth off (the mark on the gear is forward of the alignment mark by two teeth on both spockets).

Wrong belt possibly? It was part of a kit, sealed package, etc.

[HRT]

You didn't mention the year of your car, so I'll assume 2000-2002- you're following the procedure on page 11C-35 of Tearstone's manual link here? Tearstone Performance - Service Manuals Part of that is putting the belt on in a certain order around the pulleys. The reason for that order is it will mean the belt is tight between all the sprockets except for a big loop of slack at the tensioner pulley.

That's why, after putting the belt on, they say to (Step 3) slightly reverse the rear/right cam sprocket = gives the belt an extra few millimeters of slack to the tensioner pulley. And by giving the tensioner pulley a preliminary tightening and then (Step 5) going 1/4-turn-backwards and 1/4-turn-forwards will give even more slack at the pulley. (Yes after going 1/4 turn backwards, you bring it 1/4 turn forwards to the crank pulley mark).

Right now I'm hoping there was some slack between the pulleys as you installede the belt. If there's any slack except at the tensioner pulley, doing the 1/4 turn back/forwards will throw things off. And yes definitely could be a wrong belt, try pulling it and comparing to the original. Or, there should be a part # stamped on the belt, see if you can find it at rockauto.com to confirm.

[rlager]

I'll definitely check into that stuff today. It's a work day though. It is a 2001, and the first time I put the new belt on I hadn't followed that order, but the 2nd time I did. I must still have some slack somewhere. When you say rear - do you mean toward the rear of the car (what they refer to in the manual as the "right cam sprocket").

Unfortunately I don't have the old belt to compare with - it was thrown away by mistake, but I'll check the part number and see what it comes up with.

Have a great day - I'll post back with more info this afternoon/evening.

[rlager]

Just one more quick question...in that section of the instructions - assuming that everything is lined up when you begin - when you turn the right bank cam sprocket back a bit to take up the slack, the mark will thrown off by a few teeth - so then the next part of number 3 in the instructions says to check the timing marks again....one (the right or rear bank) will be off though at that point wont it?

[HRT]

Originally Posted by rlager

When you say rear - do you mean toward the rear of the car (what they refer to in the manual as the "right cam sprocket").

Yup that's why I said "right/rear"

Originally Posted by rlager

Just one more quick question...in that section of the instructions - assuming that everything is lined up when you begin - when you turn the right bank cam sprocket back a bit to take up the slack, the mark will thrown off by a few teeth - so then the next part of number 3 in the instructions says to check the timing marks again....one (the right or rear bank) will be off though at that point wont it?

Well at this point, everything should be connected by the belt. So at most, you'd be turning the right (right/rear LOL) cam sprocket just a slight millimeter or two- and then it would get TIGHT because it would be trying to move the left cam sprocket too. When you turn the right cam sprocket counter clockwise, the valve springs will make it want to snap counter-clockwise (see my message #14 above, under "6. Cam seals"). But the belt will stop it.

So when you try to turn the right sprocket counterclockwise, it should only move a slight bit. Then you check the mark to make sure it's still aligned. If it's moved backward a bunch, but the left sprocket never moved, then it means the right sprocket's off a tooth (and you should realign the mark, readjust the belt, and try again).

Hope that helps explain it! Hopefully with today being a work day, you didn't spend all night under the car. That makes for a rough Monday morning (been there, done that)!

[rlager]

Yeah that definitely makes more sense and I can visualize better what's supposed to happen.

Didn't spend all night under the car fortunately. Too old for that noise . Today was a gym night so I'm probably not going to look at the car again until tomorrow but I'll keep you posted. Thanks a bunch again for your help. I've done timing belts before but never for this car.

Ironic that it was the water pump that started the whole thing - the timing belt was fine but figured I'd replace it since I was doing the pump. Then the crank gear sealed to the pulley thing happened and here we are .

[Danielv2008]

I recall only having to move the rear cam back one tooth before installing the belt. After tightening the belt, the right cam moved back to the timing mark.

Also don't rotate the crank independent of the cams, you will be hitting the valves if you do.

[rlager]

Things went much better last night. I was able to get the belt installed with the proper rotation, and after 4 turns the marks are still lining up. I feel I can proceed past this point now. Marks line up, engine not binding, no resistance when pulling out the tensioner pin...life is good .

Thanks everyone for all of your help! I'm sure I'll be back if something else crops up.

rgl

[rlager]

Sorry - that should have been "proper tension" .

[HRT]

That's definitely great news glad to hear it worked out OK!