Trying to Tune...

[johnsgalant]

johnathan.ross@gmail.com -- does my rom work a little better -- its urs with 3g maf scaling and smoothing plus my injector scaling...

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

johnathan.ross@gmail.com -- does my rom work a little better -- its urs with 3g maf scaling and smoothing plus my injector scaling...

I'll send you the files as soon as I can... thanks.

As for working better, it seems to be alright, the throttle response feels a little off though.


As for an update to my problem... I had my mechanic install a new knock sensor (I tried to but the location was so hard to get a good angle to remove it), and he said it was still knocking. I just have no idea how much, or whether or not it improved with a new knock sensor.

I think what I have to do now is make sure that the injectors/latency values are correctly dialed in and make sure everything else with my ROM is correct.

Once that is done, and if I'm still having these knock issues, the only other option for me is to see if I can use another Evo 8 Ecu to see if the ECU is the problem.

If that isn't the problem, then I honestly have no idea what else I could do.... this phantom knock issue is really gettin to me because I still haven't felt the full potential of the car, and its actually quite discouraging after almost 2 years of being boosted.

I really appreciate all of your help with this issue... I just hope it gets resolved soon...

[johnsgalant]

its not phantom knock if when u decrease timing it dissappears.. Its probably an injector scaling or fuel issue -- if u have timing too low or too high u get knock... If u want ill send you my data in ur rom with my timing and fuel and u can try that.. You will probably need to work with injector scaling and latency either way..

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

its not phantom knock if when u decrease timing it dissappears.. Its probably an injector scaling or fuel issue -- if u have timing too low or too high u get knock... If u want ill send you my data in ur rom with my timing and fuel and u can try that.. You will probably need to work with injector scaling and latency either way..

But thats the thing; it doesn't disappear. When we added fuel and retarded the timing, it knocked even more. It didn't seem to go away no matter what my tuner did; and he did this 2 times already. He said no matter what he did that it still knocked.

You are right though, either way, I'm going to have to work with injector scaling as well as latencies, so I want to get that as close to perfect as possible before exploring any other possibilities.

Actually, would you mind changing my maps to yours so I could see if it does make a difference? I'm actually going to try to flash that ROM to my stock 2002 3g 5spd ECU instead of the EVO Ecu, and see if that makes a difference as well.

[Ithinkyou]

i was able to do pretty well on the inj latencies. Did you make the fuel an timing adjustments together? id agree with john. But if your moving the fuel and timing together you might be keeping the car inside the knock conditions. For the longest i thought the modded 440s i was running were out of 2% flow tolerance. BUT in the long run the scaling was slightly too large and the latencies werent tight enough niether.

[johnsgalant]

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here is my rom -- the scaling is pretty high it works for me dunno how yours will be but if its bad change the scaling..

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

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here is my rom -- the scaling is pretty high it works for me dunno how yours will be but if its bad change the scaling..

Wow it is really high.. what exactly is your setup?

[johnsgalant]

dsm 450cc bluetops - evo fpr and rail - 190lph walbro - evo big 16g on 12 psi

i could not get the trims to close to zero under my scaling so i kept going up till i found it.. now my trims are never more than 7% either way so im happy..

[Ithinkyou]

>7%'s good enough. Flash that one dre

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

>7%'s good enough. Flash that one dre

Haha yeah I'm about to do that after work and see whats up. I'll let you guys know how it goes and I'll post the logs.

Thanks again!

[itz_tha_dre]

Well I tried it; I used my MAF scaling/smoothing, but copied the fuel map/ignition timing map, injector scaling/latencies, from the ROM that johnsgalant sent, to my existing ROM.

After the car idled for a bit, I revved it some, only to find that it would still knock. (I realize that his ROM won't be the solution to my problem, but I thought at least it would make it knock less, given his fuel map is much more richer than what I was using) The log that I sent johnsgalant showed a knock count of 27 at one point, and this is just revving in idle.

I think what I'll do next is use his fuel map, injector scaling/latencies, but use the timing that I originally had on it.

I really just need to dial everything in correctly though.... I mean thats really all I have left, considering I exhausted all other options of what could be the cause of this.

I just don't know how everyone else got around this problem...IF they even encountered it... lucky them I guess.

[Ithinkyou]

The only time my setup did that was when my injectors werent scaled properly FOR MY CAR. Thats the key point here too. I tried other peoples settings to no avail. They were obviously dumping too much or too little fuel in all kinds of conditions. idling rich or lean but nowhere near what i wanted.

Youll need to sit down:

-setup evoscan
-Make adjustments to 14v-18v mainly the 14v
-idled 20min
-repeat>repeat>repeat>repeat>repeat till its tight. Use the 16 an 18 to help
-Drive around town in 25 minute trips
-Make adjustments to 11v&9v mainly the 11v
-idled 20min
-repeat>repeat>repeat>repeat>repeat till its tight.
Keep the 4v cell within proportion to the others. So no bigass jump from the 4v to the 7v ya know.

I put this process off knowing it would be as tedious as it sounds because IT IS. But it really did make a huge differences for me. Especially when i thought the modded 440s i had were garbage because they appeared undialable. but they dialed in very nicely once i put the time in. But who really would pay a tuner to do THAT?!?!


Still replace the knock sensor like you were planning to. Then, recheck/replace the plugs. Spend a good hour an a half on the idle trims. Also to get a scaling ballpark you only need to get the car under load in 1st briefly to see where the AFR drops to. Adjust and spend some more quality time dialing the injectors. And check your timing maps too AFTER all thats done. Because it sounds like theres been too much map shuffling an shit now. It gets crazy frustrating trying to double back to what map worked better than another after while.

[johnsgalant]

easier than spending so much time is to set the car in open loop bit.. i have to look but u set it in open loop and adjust ur scaling and latency and watch the afr to it stays around 14.7 as close as possible.. that should be close to what u need.. even on my worst scaling tho i never saw knock like that -- ur scaling must be fubar -- try also flashing my rom directly to ur evo ecu and change the scaling and or latencies only to rule out a rom issue...

[OBGTZ]

Originally Posted by itz_tha_dre

Here's the link to my ROM...
I'm going to flash the ecu with the stock MAF scalings as well as the MAF smoothing.

Never mind. I see you already changed that.

[itz_tha_dre]

Thanks everyone... definitely going to try and do what Ithinkyou suggested. It'll probably take me a little while to do all this, but once its done hopefully that'll be it. Thanks again all; johnsgalant, I'll send you some logs and we'll take it from there.

[Ithinkyou]

johns right on the open loop thing too. Wish ida thought of setting the OLs to keep the car in OL always to dial the scaling.

[itz_tha_dre]

Just for clarification...

From what I know, in closed loop, the ECU relies on feedback from the O2 sensors in order to regulate fuel trims, correct?

In open loop, it uses the maps, if I'm not mistaken.

So would you just unhook your O2 sensors in order to keep the car in open loop?

[Ithinkyou]

no thats too much work when you can just flash it to go into OL at lower or any load.
Dont feel like takin screen shots. I believe on the 3g its set for voltage on the right column on the right but the evo had it in load so i right clicked an all that good shit an changed all 4 of em throttle so they made better sense for me to compare to evoscan to see where the car was at when the knock occurs.

Way back in the beginning when i lost my rear O2 on the road(same as unplugging/removing). The car ran richer across the board.
But for instance:


My OL lo Throttle =
500 - 100
1000- 100
1500- 98.125
2000- 96.25
2500- 92.5
3000- 86.875
3500- 81.25
4000- 76.25
4500- 70.625
5000- 65.625
5500- 60
6000- 53.125
6500- 51.875
7000- 50
7500- 48.75

To get it to tip in sooner i would just lower it in my lower rpm ranges

My OL lo Throttle =
500 - 96.2
1000- 96.2
1500- 94.4
2000- 92.5
2500- 88.8
3000- 83.1
3500- 77.5
4000- 72.5
4500- 70.625
5000- 65.625
5500- 60
6000- 53.125
6500- 51.875
7000- 50
7500- 48.75

Obviously thats only a few ticks down which means you still gotta step on the pedal for the most part
SOooooo....

My OL lo Throttle =
500 - 0
1000- 0
1500- 0
2000- 0
2500- 0
3000- 86.875
3500- 81.25
4000- 76.25
4500- 70.625
5000- 65.625
5500- 60
6000- 53.125
6500- 51.875
7000- 50
7500- 48.75

Thats how i stubled on how those tables worked.

[johnsgalant]

i think there is actually a periphery bit to set it open.. u can also set the min temp for closed loop to something way high like 200 or 300 to set it to open loop...

by the way evo ecu has 4 open loop tables for hi and low with load and voltage so u can enter loads or voltages too but what he said..

[Ithinkyou]

yeah i wasnt in the mood to bust out with the screenshots. Im assuming the low OL would be cruising accel an hi OL is floorin it. Playing with it in volts an loads was takin too long so i went with the throttle postion

[itz_tha_dre]

Cool.. thanks for the info guys. Definitely going to try that when I'm able.

I think setting the min temp for closed loop sounds like the quickest way.

Thanks again.

[stgray22]

i would think you will throw CEL's if you set the closed loop temp higher. something like "insufficient coolant temp for closed loop". i just changed the load tables like stated above and am playing with it as we speak. definitely a lot easier than driving all day.

[itz_tha_dre]

So after my car is set for OPEN Loop, I still proceed the same way as mentioned by ithinkyou?

I'm thinking that I would still have to do the same as ithinkyou mentioned, but log the idle in CLOSED loop, and then flash it to be open loop so I don't have to drive around for the mid fuel trims... is that correct?

So basically...

1. Log idle for 15-20 min.
2. Adjust latencies/scaling
Log again.
Adjust again, repeat 1 and 2 until dialed in.

Then,

Flash for OPEN LOOP..

Log, Adjust, log, adjust, until dialed in?

[Ithinkyou]

yup... youre lookin to get the car to cycle so you can make the adjustments to eventually get the lo & mid trims to >5% on evoscan

[itz_tha_dre]

Nice, thanks for the clarification!

[johnsgalant]

u can get ur car in open loop any number of ways but once ur there u will have an afr at idle which will be lean or rich -- get ur idle to close to mid 14 or low 15 then set to closed loop and let it cycle to have the trims moving for 16 or so mins as the ecu cycles every 4 mins according to the experts so 4 cycles will be 16mins atleast... That should give u an indication of how close.. Now if u did what i said u will be very close -- set to open loop watch afr and adjust the scaling till its close as possible in idle -- put the car in neutral for stick or park for auto and adjust.. You should see the car getting closer or farther depending how u adjust -- smaller scaling more rich and higher number more lean... If your afr cycles and goes to 14.7 and stays u r not in closed loop.. Your either gonna be higher or lower not exact.. Once u get that close and have the trims not going to -12 or +12 then u can work on adjusting the voltage latencies to get the number a little lower.. You cannot do all this in one day it will take a few days maybe a week.. When u get the idle good then u drive in closed loop for a day and review the trims and make sure its ok.. Then move on to latencies and do the same.. NO BOOST -- it will throw off ur trims if u accelerate too hard or do anything other than light driving. Thats how i did mine..

[Ithinkyou]

i went with 20 minutes mainly because the car didnt respond to 16 minute waits. It actually made bigger more concrete adjustments that settled. Theni could work those numbers after i let it idle 20-25 minutes.

My question is though, how does it help to dial the trims if the car never sees low boost. I mean once you get it dialed with no boost as soon as the car. See a little or a lot after a day or 2 his trims are gonna spread out again.

[johnsgalant]

because the trims will never get close to where u want it if u constantly are rich -- your trims will never stay low they may goto -12.5 but they should not stay that way.. So when u go wot it should give u a negative trim depending on how long u run ur car hard.. When i get on the highway for 15 minutes or so my trims start to go negative or are up in the negatives. If i dont give my car boost the trims stay lo. the problem comes when ur too far off it will never ever leave +12 or -12s.. Once u get regular driving trims good to go it will hover around it.. It will fluctuate and thats fine but should eventually lower and return.. If u try to dial it in with moderate boost ull be there for ever in my experience.

[Ithinkyou]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

because the trims will never get close to where u want it if u constantly are rich -- your trims will never stay low they may goto -12.5 but they should not stay that way.. So when u go wot it should give u a negative trim depending on how long u run ur car hard.. When i get on the highway for 15 minutes or so my trims start to go negative or are up in the negatives. If i dont give my car boost the trims stay lo. the problem comes when ur too far off it will never ever leave +12 or -12s.. Once u get regular driving trims good to go it will hover around it.. It will fluctuate and thats fine but should eventually lower and return.. If u try to dial it in with moderate boost ull be there for ever in my experience.

Ok i guess i natrually followed that rule because i didnt run into that problem. They would swing after hard driving and then come back after some normal driving.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

i think there is actually a periphery bit to set it open.. u can also set the min temp for closed loop to something way high like 200 or 300 to set it to open loop...

by the way evo ecu has 4 open loop tables for hi and low with load and voltage so u can enter loads or voltages too but what he said..

Just as an update, yesterday I took around 3 to 4 hours to get to the right voltage in the 14v column, and I think I got it. Now I just have to work on the mids and get those dialed in.

Johnsgalant, I actually tried to set the min temp for closed loop, and the guy below, stgray22, was correct. It did throw a code...

P0125 - Insufficient Coolant Temperature For Closed Loop Fuel Control.

So right now I'm going to try to adjust the 4 open loop tables.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

yeah i wasnt in the mood to bust out with the screenshots. Im assuming the low OL would be cruising accel an hi OL is floorin it. Playing with it in volts an loads was takin too long so i went with the throttle postion

Ithinkyou, I did what you said and right clicked to set it to throttle position, however, all I see is throttle voltage. Did you make a new value for throttle position or something?

Couldn't I just set the current values that are in load to 0?

[Ithinkyou]

my bad i wasnt specific enough on that one. It is voltage, it just convieniently goes from 0-100 like in evoscan. so yeah play with the open loop settings that way.

[itz_tha_dre]

Right now I'm trying to idle my car so that the mid fuel trims are being affected, not the idle one.

Is there a way to affect only the mids while idling, and not cruising?? I came across an EvoM forum where someone said they were able to affect the mid fuel trims while idling; I'll have to post the link.

[itz_tha_dre]

Heres the link that I was talking about...

Found - LT Fuel Trim Control !!! - evolutionm.net

[Ithinkyou]

oh shit thats hella new ill have to read up on it later today or something.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

oh shit thats hella new ill have to read up on it later today or something.

Yeah man. With this, I don't think you will have to drive around in order to adjust your MIDs. You can just set it to change at a certain point, based on Airflow.

Read it over and let me know what you think. I've been messing with it all day today, but for some reason my MIDs won't change. Don't know if i'm doing something wrong or what...

[Ithinkyou]

that mod's pretty sick! Id say if you just knock off about 20 points for the low>mid/mid>low threasholds it should put our cars within the proper range. Plus when you look at how its setup, it kinda reveals why its so picky at times to tune. The threadsholds are still running off evo settings. Its definately an awesome find cuz with 272 cams that run like 280's on my new setup. Dialing injectors was looking to be an arduous task.

[itz_tha_dre]

Definitely useful information. Just have to try to figure out if I can get it to work! Haha.. give it a shot if you can.

From what it seems, when going from low->mid, if the hz is met (for example, in my ROM its at 56.25) then thats when it would switch to MID trim, so then you would lower the hz to whatever it is at idle, so it would adjust the MIDs at idle. So I made mine around 30hz, because thats what it was reading when idling.

However, instead of changing the mid->low to something lower (my value was ~43hz), wouldn't you raise it to higher because you don't want it to switch back to the low at that hz?

Thats what I understand, but I could be very wrong. I posted my same question in the Evo forums, but haven't gotten an answer yet.

[Ithinkyou]

Well i do know the 2 cars cycle thier idle differently so. Ive heard an 8 an 9 rev up on its own like hlaf an rpm when the fans come on, and i think the guy set it up to take advantage of that. Maybe try setting it to switch up at like 45hz and switch down at 40 so youll have to rev it a very small bit. So when you get off the throttle after enough datas been processed for the mid trim it can drop back into the low trims. Cuz otherwise itll just sit there still wanting to stay in the lo's.

My injectors are stock again so all my trims read the same all the time, ya know

[itz_tha_dre]

Periphery Configuration - EvoEcu

Another useful link. This is what JohnsGalant was talking about before, setting the periphery bit to 0 for open loop.

[Ithinkyou]

Originally Posted by itz_tha_dre

Periphery Configuration - EvoEcu

[3GwithVOLKS]

I cant get mine tuned and idle good for anything. On evoscan, my Maf bounces from 62.5-57.25Hz, then my low ltft is at 100%, mid ltft is at 50%, and high ltft is at 100%. Also noticed my baro sits at 100.45 kpa and doesnt move. I let it idle for 20 min and nothing changed. cruising isnt that bad, but its running rich and when i slow down it to come to a stop it wants to stall. it wasnt like that before I put the evo Maf in. The Cam doesnt help the idle either

[Ithinkyou]

sounds like maf scaling/size symptoms

I remember my AFHz was pretty steady at 30~32@idle
oh at update your evoscan... i does like mitsu logger an tells you if the ltfts are + or -

[Ithinkyou]

sounds like maf scaling/size symptoms

I remember my AFHz was pretty steady at 30~32@idle
oh at update your evoscan... i does like mitsu logger an tells you if the ltfts are + or -

[3GwithVOLKS]

Yeah, I was thinking it had something to do with maf size and scaling, but im using a stock evo8 maf and have the stock settings in the tune so im not sure. I was reading on evom that the hard pipes and cams and stuff will make the maf read a higher hz, but I didn't think it would be that high. Also, how do I upgrade my evoscan? I would like to use mitsuloger instead, but it wouldn't download when I tried to download it

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by 3GwithVOLKS

Yeah, I was thinking it had something to do with maf size and scaling, but im using a stock evo8 maf and have the stock settings in the tune so im not sure. I was reading on evom that the hard pipes and cams and stuff will make the maf read a higher hz, but I didn't think it would be that high. Also, how do I upgrade my evoscan? I would like to use mitsuloger instead, but it wouldn't download when I tried to download it

Its pretty easy, go to this link...

EvoScan Support Desk

Open a support ticket, tell them you need to upgrade your evoscan to the newest version. They'll send you a link to download the newest one;they're pretty quick to get back to you. You just have to make sure that you know the email address that the serial number was sent to (if you don't remember it, tell them that and they'll verify and send you it again), because you'll need it to download the newer version/install the newer version.

As for idling, my car idles at around 30-31hz, but I can't seem to get it to switch to the MID ltfts. I'll have to play with it again as soon as I can.

[itz_tha_dre]

Just as an update... I'm still working on the latencies/scaling. I haven't had much time to do so lately, but it'll get done.

Just a question... when I flash for open loop, the car's idle bounces around ~13.4 to ~15.2 AFR, and it keeps bouncing around, its not steady.

What does this mean? Isn't it supposed to hold a steady idle in open loop or not necessarily?

[itz_tha_dre]

Also, how are peoples LTFT's on EvoScan at 100%? Mine are like this...

FuelTrim_Low
-0.0953
FuelTrim_Mid
.8852
FuelTrim_High
.1008

People keep saying to be around 100%, are my decimals off or something? Does anyone else have this problem?

[Ithinkyou]

the newer ES's ltft are changed to display like mitsulogger so users wouldnt have to change the formula just to make sense when telling others what theyre reading. the lo is great. The mid needs work though.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

the newer ES's ltft are changed to display like mitsulogger so users wouldnt have to change the formula just to make sense when telling others what theyre reading. the lo is great. The mid needs work though.

Thanks for the input.

I'm a bit confused with when to set it to Open Loop and Closed Loop. I've been reading this thread on the evom. forums, and I came across this post...

"First load a stock fuel map in your high octane ( if you havent done so)
then start entering the latency values and scale your injectors to 750 -/+ see how that treats you....make sure your car is outta closed loop before you start watching your trims. Try mistulogger, for me its was alot easier to read."

When I do this, my FuelTrim_Low doesn't change at all at idle. Doesn't it have to be in closed loop for this to change?

I don't understand the point of putting it into Open Loop other than to get a starting point to scale/modify latencies while trying to reach the 14.7 afr.

[Ithinkyou]

meh, are you letting it sit for 20 maybe 25 minutes
if not, fuckit. just put it in closed loop an see what it does.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

meh, are you letting it sit for 20 maybe 25 minutes
if not, fuckit. just put it in closed loop an see what it does.

Yeah it sat for 20 minutes and nothing changed. This is while in Open Loop.

I'm reading that maybe you have to reset the fuel trims by resetting the battery?

I'm going to try resetting the battery and then see what it does.

[stgray22]

the trims wont change if you stay in open loop because the ecu is not making adjustments. if you are using open loop to tune, you need to keep making changes until you get to 14.7 AFR at idle and cruise. if you get close, say 14.3-15.0, you can then change back to closed loop and your trims will change and you can see how close you are. i tuned in open loop and am idling 14.3-14.7 and my cruise is dead on. i have just been letting it run in open loop all the time for a few weeks. just been too lazy to play with it anymore.

[Ithinkyou]

so you just keep flashing the scaling/maps till the AFRs where you want in idle or cruise? That does seem more efficient than waiting 20 minutes for feedback, to then just see it swing out of range after a couple days

[stgray22]

yeah it so much faster than all the driving around to reset trims

[itz_tha_dre]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that makes sense now.

Thanks for clearing that up!

My idle right now bounces around from 13.5-15.2, I guess I gotta tweak it some more so that it hovers around 14.7, right?

[Ithinkyou]

yeah i think thats what he was gettin at.

[itz_tha_dre]

After trying to do the latencies thing again today, I stumbled upon this AWESOME post on the EvoM forums...

Knock control - load vs RPM table found - Page 3 - evolutionm.net

For those of you having ridiculous amounts of knock even at idle, this thread shows that many Evo owners were experiencing the same thing.

Basically now because of this mod, people are able to modify the ranges that knock is detected at a given RPM.

I suspect my problem is mainly coming from here, but also from my latencies.

Definitely going to try this tomorrow and see if my knock decreases! Maybe sometime soon I'll actually get to see what real boost feels like!

[Ithinkyou]

hows the progress coming along with the LTFT control.

Fuck all these leaps an bounds downpouring benefits for us. Man its gonna be fun when i start up again.

[itz_tha_dre]

Dude if you haven't, you HAVE to read through that thread. That thread highlighted the SAME EXACT issues I was having.

After doing the modifications, I just took her out, and I barely get any knock! If I do see any knock, its 2 and below, but I'm sure when my latencies/scaling are completely dialed in (getting close to it, but not fully there yet), I wouldn't see any!

That mod alone will FINALLY let me tune!!