Trying to Tune...

[itz_tha_dre]

So I bring my car to a tune shop in NJ, and after an hour or two after getting on the dyno, my tuner tells me that he's logging ridiculous amounts of knock after 10psi, like upwards of 20.

I have a 2002 RS Turbo (440CC injectors, 16g Evo 3, Evo Fuel Pump, Evo 8 Ecu flashed by FlashBlueRS)

I've been searching and reading that the knock sensor PIN on our STOCK ecu is PIN 90, and that on the Evo 8, it's pin 78. (Could someone verify this as well? I saw the Ecu Thread on dual ecus and it does say pin 90 is our knock sensor, but my tuner said he looked on his computer and the software said that it was the same pin as the Evo's??)

Now, if indeed this is true, why would it be giving me crazy knock only AFTER 10psi? If its getting the wrong signal, shouldn't it throw a code and also run like crap? Also, if I switch these pins around, as well as any other pins, it should be okay to tune, given that everything else is okay?

Thanks for any help you guys provide. Much appreciated!

[SlamminGT]

OT: Not answering your question but, how is that tune by flash, good throttle response, better gas mileage, more power? I was thinking about asking him to do mine.

[XwP1ayawX]

I would imagine that you're somehow not getting fuel above 10psi... only thing I can think of. What are you running for a regulator and what octane are you using

[johnsgalant]

from what i know pin 90 is for auto matic with knock sensor.. i believe the evo and urs is the same pin for manual tranny...

[CloudINC00]

Originally Posted by XwP1ayawX

I would imagine that you're somehow not getting fuel above 10psi... only thing I can think of. What are you running for a regulator and what octane are you using

I agree, what regulator/octane?

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

from what i know pin 90 is for auto matic with knock sensor.. i believe the evo and urs is the same pin for manual tranny...

I agree. For manual, ECU should be direct swap pin for pin.

[Ithinkyou]

im might be short on fuel pressure after 10psi. ARE you using the evo rail FPR?? Nobodys really proven if the stock rail/fpr can hang. From my experience the 440s just dont have that much to give. It sounds like youre short on fuel though.

[CloudINC00]

I'm hitting 18psi on the 440ccs and I had to lean out my fuel because it was still running in the rich 11:1 range, so I don't think it's the injectors. I'm running the EVO rail, EVO regulator & EVO fuel pump if that counts for anything...

where is your MAF? Suck-through?

[XwP1ayawX]

It's all dependent on the turbo. I couldn't go above 6ish with my 440's.

Main thing is you need to have the pressure in the rail. If he's not running the evo regulator and the octane is too low he's going to get knocks. I'm surprised the tuner didn't check his hardware.

[itz_tha_dre]

Thanks for the quick responses everyone.

I have an Aeromotove FPR on the stock rail and I'm using 93 octane.

MAF is suck through, currently trying to recirculate it. (I have to get some aluminum welded to my intake pipe and then I can recirculate it. I've never had any stalling problems or idle problems with it being VTA, but I figure that I should recirculate as to not run rich while shifting and waste gas)

[itz_tha_dre]

As for your OT.. Flash's tune is great, but he recommended getting it profesionally tuned. I've been running it for over a year now and its been holding up pretty well.

[johnsgalant]

when u lower ur timing does it decrease the knock at all? Could be the motor or overtightened knock sensor? Put low timing up top and see what happens

[MattS00]

Do you know the fuel pressure? You could easily hook cheap a mechanical gauge to the FPR and watch the pressure. Have you changed the fuel pump, or hardwired the stock pump?

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

when u lower ur timing does it decrease the knock at all? Could be the motor or overtightened knock sensor? Put low timing up top and see what happens

I think when my tuner lowered the timing, it did in fact decrease the knock, but it made the car much slower at the same psi. I'm trying to get him to send me the logs of the runs so you guys could see.

Do you think it could be phantom knock too? I do have a lot of vibrations going on, which I'm trying to get fixed.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by fasteclipse00

Do you know the fuel pressure? You could easily hook cheap a mechanical gauge to the FPR and watch the pressure. Have you changed the fuel pump, or hardwired the stock pump?

I'm not sure of the fuel pressure at full boost, but I do have a fuel gauge hooked up to my FPR. From what I remember, my tuner told me that fuel isn't an issue; he said I have enough for the amount of boost I'm looking for, it's just that it's knocking way too much. Those at the shop told me to try to get rid of the vibrations and such to see if it is indeed false knock.

The fuel pump is an Evo 8 fuel pump.

[XwP1ayawX]

What plugs are you running? You need a smaller gap, the large gap of NA plugs will cause the detonation also

[itz_tha_dre]

I'm running the NGK BKR7EIX plugs. I'll have to double check the gap, although I think they are gapped too big now that I think about it.

Thanks for all your responses.

[XwP1ayawX]

10 bucks its the gap, I accept paypal

[Ithinkyou]

I forgot gap makes a difference as well. Even worse is stock is nearly twice the evo stock gap. I went down to .024 and that helped SOOO much.

[itz_tha_dre]

Whoa .024? I think I have mine at like .029 or something. For like 14.5 psi, what size gap should I go for? .024 as well?

Thanks for the input! I'll try that as soon as I get a chance.

Erep for you all. =] I'll let you know what's up when I get a chance.

[CloudINC00]

yep, it was the gap for me too... but I spotted that quickly and it's a very noticeable problem for high-boost... I'm surprised your tuner didn't diagnose the plugs first.

[CloudINC00]

So either your tuner forgot about that or it isn't the spark plug gap. Let's hope it's the first one

[itz_tha_dre]

Just a question, after reading the old posts about gapping for turbo applications, it seems that from this forum under the stickies at the top, that " Spark plug gap should be set at .030" for up to 16psi boost. Set at .028" for 17psi and up. "

Isn't .024 a little too small of a gap?

[XwP1ayawX]

Depends on the turbo. 16psi out of a 16g and 16psi out of a gt bad boy are two different things. When you get into heavy boost the air tends to blow the spark out up top leading to misfires, that's why the gap is set so small.

[itz_tha_dre]

thanks for clearing that up playa. I'm going to adjust it as soon as I get the chance.

[XwP1ayawX]

Np let me know if it solves shit

[itz_tha_dre]

so I swapped my plugs out for closer gapped ones, and then went to log it on EvoScan to see if it still knocked. Sure enough, it did. If I revved it up in neutral it still knocked above 5. It still went as high as 35 when I was boosting. What the hell is going on??

[XwP1ayawX]

Wow... what are your afr's? You have to be going lean, there's not enough fuel. That's fucking weird

[itz_tha_dre]

You know what... I'll have to double check the gap. I had a friend gap the plugs for me and put them in. I have a feeling he didn't do it right... I don't see what else it could be considering I have enough fuel. I'll check it tomorrow and report back.

My wideband says the afrs are good when I'm boosting, like around 10 to 11.

[Ithinkyou]

only time my car did that was when my injectors werent scaled right

[CloudINC00]

10 to 11? If it's the AEM UEGO and it hits 10 afr, a lot of the time it's actually lower than that but it just doesn't read/display anything lower than 10afr (digitally "pegged out") so there's a chance you're running even richer...

I would double check the gap and take a picture of your plugs... look for signs of being overly rich (esp cyl #3)

[Ev0cl!pse05]

maybe is a corrupted rom

try another rom

[Ithinkyou]

If the car feels like its pullin through mud then it is too rich. Overly rich detonation is just as bad as lean.

[FlashBlueRS]

Originally Posted by Ev0cl!pse05

maybe is a corrupted rom

try another rom

yeah, that's exactly it.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

only time my car did that was when my injectors werent scaled right

My injectors are scaled at 406 right now.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by CloudINC00

10 to 11? If it's the AEM UEGO and it hits 10 afr, a lot of the time it's actually lower than that but it just doesn't read/display anything lower than 10afr (digitally "pegged out") so there's a chance you're running even richer...

I would double check the gap and take a picture of your plugs... look for signs of being overly rich (esp cyl #3)

Right now I'm using the PLX Wideband.

Yeah I'm going to double check the gap today and regap if necessary.

I'll let you guys know what's up after I do so.

Thanks for all the help/advice.

[CloudINC00]

after re-gapping, you're still going to run rich so try to mess with the scaling/rom a bit. Look for boost leaks too... you could be metering air that's leaking out

[itz_tha_dre]

Yeah so I found out my plugs were gapped TOO close. I regapped, went out for a drive, and now under WOT in 3rd I don't get over 7 counts of knock, which is a GREAT improvement over the ridiculous amounts I was getting before. Is 7 counts acceptable? My tuner said he doesn't like for it to go over 2 counts but for our cars is it ok?

Cloud, just to verify, scaling it up would make things leaner correct?

[CloudINC00]

Yeah, it would... but Tuning by just changing the scaling? On no, you need to tune the maps too (but scale first). Make sure idle/trims are okay before you change the maps.

[Ithinkyou]

Yes bigger number = leaner
7 is motor death on a payment plan. well spikes at least. If its just holding at any number thats all bad. Hes right though blips of no more than 2-0

Try scaling 390-380 ish. Did he dial them or did you. If they arent then the fuel maps may be a bit off.
with these widths
2.496
1.704

1.488
1.128

0.96
0.696
0.48
They got me inside 1% Mind you everycar/setup's different
If youre ltft's are outside 5% then youre gonna have issues all the time. But i think its prolly just timing an fuel work.

[Ithinkyou]

sametime-post

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Ithinkyou

Yes bigger number = leaner
7 is motor death on a payment plan. well spikes at least. If its just holding at any number thats all bad. Hes right though blips of no more than 2-0

Try scaling 390-380 ish. Did he dial them or did you. If they arent then the fuel maps may be a bit off.
with these widths
2.496
1.704

1.488
1.128

0.96
0.696
0.48
They got me inside 1% Mind you everycar/setup's different
If youre ltft's are outside 5% then youre gonna have issues all the time. But i think its prolly just timing an fuel work.

Actually FlashBlueRS helped me out with this ROM and I've left it the way it was. I scaled them back down to 385, and as for touching the maps, I'm not too sure I'm comfortable doing that as of yet... if anything I'll just go to my tuner and have him do it. I'd rather have it done right then me just guess and pray... lol.

Thanks everyone. Glad to get this issue somewhat resolved!

[itz_tha_dre]

So I'm at the tuner, and we're having problems...

We started to tune the car, and it was knocking, but not as much as before. However, when we richen it up, it knocks even more. I'm going to be posting the dyno graph as well as log graphs so you guys can take a look, because we're confused as hell as to what is going on. I'll have the logs posted by the end of today...

Has anyone come across this while tuning??

[itz_tha_dre]

File 21 is it knocking BEFORE we add fuel.
File 19 is after we added fuel, and its knocking even more.

[itz_tha_dre]

Try these links for the .CSV files.. the first one is the less knocking run..

clean_run_2009.04.15_13.03.31.csv - Hosted on SaveFile.com

high_knock_counts_2009.04.15_13.21.31.csv - Hosted on SaveFile.com

My tuner was explaining to me that he feels that whatever changes he's making aren't taking effect, like he'll retard the timing to get rid of the knock but it knocks even more; whatever changes he makes and whatever results are supposed to happen, don't happen, but it has the opposite effect of what is supposed to happen. (if that makes any sense) He mentioned that he thinks it might be the ecu.. but I'm not sure.

Anyone have any ideas? Or have heard/dealt with this before???

[itz_tha_dre]

Well after doing some searching, I came across this thread...

Strange knock pattern problem - tuning with ecuflash

This seems to be exactly what I'm experiencing. I'm going to try to replace the knock sensor first to eliminate that possibility and then move on from there.

[CloudINC00]

I'm having high amounts of knock even at 11-12:1 afr, too. Still haven't found a solution besides not drive it. I'm ECU swapped too

[Cudude11]

Just wanted to through my two cents in, I've gaped my plugs at .02 and I'm running 18psi with 440cc injectors and stock rail. My WOT I get 0 Knock, I get two counts going into WOT(probably need to adjust accel enrichment) but as soon as it climbs they drop to 0 counts. Also my AFR is reading in the low 8-9's. My injectors are also scaled to 435. The Evo ECU is identical pin layout as the M/T rs/gs. Have you made sure that your MAF scaling and corresponding information is correct?

[CloudINC00]

8-9s?

[Cudude11]

yeah mad rich, I know but I haven't been able to lean it out. Usually at WOT it will hit 8.7:1 and run back up to 9.2:1

[johnsgalant]

i find that the afr factor is not as important as the timing factor.. sometimes u can run 12 afr if u have low enough timing .. i would back down timing and see if the knock dissappears.. What maps are you guys using ? What kinda timing are you running? post ur roms.. ITs normal for 1 to 3 counts on a pull in the beginning but it should quickly go back to 0..

[Cudude11]

It does, I haven't altered the timing to much, I significantly dropped it as a safety feature. I feel that there is much more power to be gained from adding some timing. I tweaked my maps and got my knock down to 1 count before WOT and 0 during and AFR around 11.9:1.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

i find that the afr factor is not as important as the timing factor.. sometimes u can run 12 afr if u have low enough timing .. i would back down timing and see if the knock dissappears.. What maps are you guys using ? What kinda timing are you running? post ur roms.. ITs normal for 1 to 3 counts on a pull in the beginning but it should quickly go back to 0..

I'll have to post my rom later tonight b/c I'm at work... but right now I'm using the stock evo maps because everytime my tuner would try to tune it, the knock would get worse and worse.

As for MAF scalings and such, I just changed them recently using EvoM's MAF adjusting (referenced in Fierjy's (sp) thread), using the Evo's data. Previously tried to use the stock 3g's but it wouldn't idle right; probably have to go back to using that though, correct?

[Cudude11]

well you have an eclipse MAF not an evo, post up your MAF scalings and such and I'll see if they are like mine.

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by Cudude11

well you have an eclipse MAF not an evo, post up your MAF scalings and such and I'll see if they are like mine.

I know, which is why I found it weird that the Evo settings were helping my car idle a lot better than my stock settings.

I'll post them as soon as I get the chance.

[itz_tha_dre]

Here's the link to my ROM...

EditedEcu_Most_Recent_.hex - Hosted on SaveFile.com

It's pretty much a stock Evo ROM but I'm trying to get the MAF scalings and such correct. Maybe this will alleviate some of the problems?

I'm going to flash the ecu with the stock MAF scalings as well as the MAF smoothing.

The left side of the fields are both...

19
25
50
75
100
125
150
175
200
225
250
275
300
400
500
600
800
1000
1200
1400
1600

MAF Scaling will be set to...

101
107
117
128
132
138
144
148
151
153
155
157
159
164
167
169
174
176
176
174
172

Smoothing will be...

127
127
127
131
131
130
129
126
126
128
129
126
128
129
126
132
131
131
131
131
131

As I said before, I did do that MAF Scaling from the EVO M forums where you had to pretty much create your own unit of measure. (AirFlowHZ)

[johnsgalant]

try this rom see if it makes a diff also see what afr is at idle...

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

[itz_tha_dre]

Originally Posted by johnsgalant

try this rom see if it makes a diff also see what afr is at idle...

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Will do as soon as I am able. Thanks!

[itz_tha_dre]

Johnsgalant, I flashed it to my car, started right up. The afr's seemed pretty normal. I'll post the log at idle as well as revving it a bit. While revving, I still got a high knock of 11.

Before messing around with more settings, this weekend, I'll hopefully have time to install a new knock sensor that I ordered just to get rid of the possibility of a faulty knock sensor.

Then, we'll see what happens.

[itz_tha_dre]

Johnsgalant, I flashed it to my car, started right up. The afr's seemed pretty normal. I'll post the log at idle as well as revving it a bit. While revving, I still got a high knock of 11.

Before messing around with more settings, this weekend, I'll hopefully have time to install a new knock sensor that I ordered just to get rid of the possibility of a faulty knock sensor.

Then, we'll see what happens.

[itz_tha_dre]

Savefile isn't letting me upload the logs right now so if you want to see them shoot me your email and I'll send them to you there.

Thanks for your help!