Cloud's built SOHC 4g64 project

[CloudINC00]

Well, as some of you may know... I blew some rings. The plan is to rebuild the 4g64 and leave it SOHC. Here's the story and some pictures:

After stage 1 I only made 211 whp with a smooth curve... I was running a 16g at 8psi at the time... dyno tuned with an SAFC-II...



I then did some crazy MODs without proper tuning (like camshaft and larger injectors) then upped the boost (to 12psi then sometimes 16psi). Eventually the car wore down and it blew... I was being an immature idiot. I saw it coming but it was the spur of the moment thing.







Then the problem piston...











The new plan, build the block and use the reflash + e-manage combo to tune it properly.

The build kit: http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...itsubishi.html
Its a modified version of kit #6.. going with the 8.5:1 Wiesco pistons and undecided on rods

Going to use a 56 trim T3/T4 this time instead of a 16g. The valves on cyl 2 are smashed so I'm going with a +0.1 set of valves with titanium springs. Already have the RPW camshaft and I'm thinking about sending the head off to be ported and decked.

The car will be complete before the end of summer (Aug or Sept) that way it won't be rushed. I have been humbled - and this being my first car, in the future I will be more realistic.

---

EDIT: 3/11/07

Here is a list of parts I'm planning on using for the build:

Head:
2g 4g63 +1mm oversize stainless intake/exhaust valves *purchased*.
Port and polish *going to send off, + get the valves seated*.
3g 4g64 Titanium valve springs.
3g 4g64 RPW turbo camshaft. *installed*

Block:
3g 4g64 Gasket set.
3g 4g64 MLS head gasket.
3g 4g64 Wiseco Forged Pistons (stock bore 86.5mm 8.5:1 comp) w/rings.
3g 4g64 Rebuild kit.
2g 4g63T 7-bolt Eagle rods.
91 6-bolt con rod bearings.

[Bitter]

damn, thats a detonated piston!

[CloudINC00]

its not as bad as I've seen other pistons but its still pretty bad. I want to start this thread off with the mistakes and the problems and hopefully by the time this thread is done, the progress would have been recorded and the end result is something worth the effort.

[Bitter]

well what happened in that one cylinder? was the injector not flowing correctly?

[CloudINC00]

yeah, the rest seem nice and golden brown... this is an odd-ball piston, but then again this happens a lot with cars. Once one piston goes out the whole car drives differently and the car is no-longer being pushed. If it was an injector, that problem is solved because I'm putting the 450ccs back in. I think it was just the tune and timing..

oh, by the way... I like the sound of sealed pistons getting pulled out of the block... haha

[toogood11]

i look forward to watching you take your time this go round. i really enjoyed watching you get everything together, i hope your next project turns out for the best, man. good luck with it.

[Bitter]

Originally Posted by CloudINC00

yeah, the rest seem nice and golden brown... this is an odd-ball piston, but then again this happens a lot with cars. Once one piston goes out the whole car drives differently and the car is no-longer being pushed. If it was an injector, that problem is solved because I'm putting the 450ccs back in. I think it was just the tune and timing..

oh, by the way... I like the sound of sealed pistons getting pulled out of the block... haha

lol, easiest way ive seen to take pistons out was with an airgun. just shoot some air down the plug hole and pop, catch it on the bottom. but that wasnt with a OHV engine.

[CloudINC00]

my way was pretty easy, the block was already pulled off/bare and the only thing left was the crankshaft. So unbolt and just push down while the block was flipped over. It just made a sliding sound then it "popped" out haha

[CloudINC00]

anyone know where I can find some rods? They seem to all be fore the 2nd gen eclipses (4g63s and 2g 4g64s)

[Bitter]

ya, the internals are the same between the 99 4g64 and the 3G 4g64. its the same engine, just turned 180 degrees.

[CloudINC00]

I'll take note of that. So, rods are a direct swap? no play?

[toogood11]

talk to playa. he used 2g rods. theyre even bigger, and they fit. he said they looked as if theyd flow a lot more than stock even.

[CloudINC00]

bigger? flow? like... stroke? I'll use the search function

[cyberbrain]

summit racing has some damn good prices on con rods, a nice set of eagles for a 97 GST 4g63.

[CloudINC00]

so the 4g63s work as well?

[toogood11]

theyre i think and dont quote me, but 1mm bigger.

[cyberbrain]

I do believe they work.

[cyberbrain]

2g 7bolt rods, do they fit?

[CloudINC00]

thanks guys.. erep all around

[XwP1ayawX]

See? I told you he'd get back at it . I'll pull up the link that I got my rods at when I get home for you. If you're building the head the 4g63 valves fit. I got mine 1mm over, stainless. Also I can find you rockers, but the stockers do alright.

[3GwithVOLKS]

Originally Posted by XwP1ayawX

See? I told you he'd get back at it . I'll pull up the link that I got my rods at when I get home for you. If you're building the head the 4g63 valves fit. I got mine 1mm over, stainless. Also I can find you rockers, but the stockers do alright.

when you do the 4g63 valves do you have to get the 4g63 valve seals or valve guides?

[GSKNIGHT]

Post up a parts list when you get everything gathered. So your'e doing the SOHC Xull style?

I'll definetly keep and eye on this thread.

[zeeshan]

that #3 detonated bad

make sure you fix the problem, or this will happen to your built engine too

[CloudINC00]

yeah, I know. I ditched the SAFC. Going with the reflash, emanage, and adjustable cam gear to level things out. Also going with 550ccs instead of 450ccs or the retarded 780ccs I had (to over-compensate for the SAFC's ability to perform... ended up screwing up the timing).

[GSKNIGHT]

So what was wrong with the 780's?

[3GwithVOLKS]

so will the 780s be for sale?

[CloudINC00]

They were too big. It idled like crap. I want to give them one more shot before I let go of them.

[XwP1ayawX]

Originally Posted by 3GwithVOLKS

when you do the 4g63 valves do you have to get the 4g63 valve seals or valve guides?

Not from what I know. He's obviously reseating everything. I'll check next time I'm at the shop to make sure, but I never gave him anything else besides the springs and the valves.

[GSKNIGHT]

If you can get EcuFlash to work properly, You'll have no problem with the idle. The injector scaling and latency adjustments should let you run the 780's just fine.

[CloudINC00]

thats what I was thinking. I need to get acquainted with the software first... either that or get a base map for my car as if it were to run 780ccs N/A then take it to the dyno.

[XwP1ayawX]

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com

Valves, rockers, all the goodies

[CloudINC00]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to XxPlayaX again."

[CloudINC00]

I just purchased a set of 4g63 SS +1mm O/S valves. Once they arrive, I'm going to ship the head to a shop to get all the work done. Any recommendations? (with website and contact info) A local shop here will take it but I'm sure they charge a lot more for them to ship it off.

[CloudINC00]

the local shop I'm talking about is:

http://www.stage6motorsports.com/s6_contact.html

They don't do it themselves, but they send it off to somebody. I want to see if I can send it off directly without having to go through Stage 6 (they add on to the price)

You guys may know Stage6 from youtube or streetfire. For a while, their twin turbo ford GT was in the top 10 videos. I've seen it in person and it's pretty scarry

[CloudINC00]

They're on the way. I'll update the bottom part of my first post so that new-comers can see what parts im planning on using.

[CloudINC00]

Here is a list of parts I'm planning on using for the build:

Head:
2g 4g63 +1mm oversize stainless intake/exhaust valves *purchased*.
Port and polish *going to send off, + get the valves seated*.

Block:
3g 4g64 Gasket set.
3g 4g64 MLS head gasket.
3g 4g64 Wiseco Forged Pistons (stock bore 86.5mm 8.5:1 comp) w/rings.
3g 4g64 Rebuild kit.
2g 4g63T 7-bolt Eagle rods.
91 6-bolt con rod bearings.

The more organized this post, the fewer PMs/questions I get. Plus, if you search for this info, it will all be available.

[XwP1ayawX]

Looks like we got the same build going on, sounds straight. Thise valves are sweet, wait till you see it all set up. I'm still waiting on my fuckin pistons , I need to hit the lottery. As far as the head goes, my guy can do a sweet job, depending on if you want to ship it or not.

[cyberbrain]

5.5:1 ???? thats kinda low isnt it? I know lower compression is good for nitrous and boost.

[Bitter]

with 5.5:1 CR he'll be lucky if the car can move under its own power when its not on boost.

[XwP1ayawX]

You don't need titanium valve springs. I run those on my 13:1cr Chevelle that tops power at 8500rpms. That would be some serious overkill, not to mention you'd be out a crank after a couple starts. If you do feel like you need em, you'll need a stronger crank to turn the motor around

[CloudINC00]

that was a typo. its 8.5:1 (like in my first post). I dont even know a place that offers 5.5:1

[VeilSide]

Originally Posted by CloudINC00

anyone know where I can find some rods? They seem to all be fore the 2nd gen eclipses (4g63s and 2g 4g64s)

Rods are not needed. If you plan on making big HP then get rods, otherwise the stock 4g64 rods are built pretty good to withstand power.

[CloudINC00]

Well, the goal was 17psi... but if I get this headwork done, I might run 20psi (or keep 17psi). The tranny is what bothers me.

[VeilSide]

I then did some crazy MODs without proper tuning (like camshaft and larger injectors) then upped the boost (to 12psi then sometimes 16psi). Eventually the car wore down and it blew... I was being an immature idiot. I saw it coming but it was the spur of the moment thing.

Dude what the F****!!!!! were you thinking.

Look man, I haven't heard a person TILL THIS DAY ON THIS FORUM used 780CC injectors. For the power you want (12-16 range) hell, 440's can handle that and more.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!. When is anybody going to learn that this car is not a damn DSM nor is it a SUPRA, you can't mod this thing with those damn half ass rinky dink fuel management systems. Sure the E-manage, AFC, S-AFC etc are good. But where do you see these system mostly in? DSM's, Ricer Civics etc. Those cars can tune on a dime.

With this 3g ECU we try to make a relationship work with piggyback systems, and all I've read were people steady having problems left and right. I don't give a shit what piggyback system you have this car is too damn smart for that. The Mitsu engineers knew what they were doing when the car was built, and they didn't want our asses fu****** with it. But there is a loop hole.

GENTLEMEN GO GET THE AEM EMS. Fellas, please trust me on this. I had a 3g modded with the SDS with engine work and I decided to go EMS just to save a hassel and easier tuning. Boy was I thankful, guys........I never had one issue, never had one engine light on, never had any strange noises etc. It ran perfect. I sold it because I'm getting into bikes now (should have done that in the first place).

The key to making the EMS work is you have to have A GOOD TUNER.

[balla4880]

Who told you all 2gen dohc valves work in the sohc?

[toogood11]

cloud, a sohc head wont flow enough to make power after 17 psi. if i were you, i think you should play around at 14-16 psi. and call it a day. pushing it any further is almost worthless, also on a piggyback, just isnt the smartest thing to do after dumping all that money into a motor. get an ems. it'll take some saving up, but you'll be glad you did.

i also agree with vielside but disagree with vielside. 450cc injectors can flow 300hp using the right turbocharger but if you push 14-16psi with a hybrid turbocharger, you'd be perfect with 780cc's IMO.

[3GwithVOLKS]

he does have a cam and will be porting and polishing the head and using oversized valves so why do you think it wont flow enough to make power past 17psi? I am picking out all of my parts now for my build and plan on 30+psi with big turbo on a built single cam head. Granted I plan on doing more head work than him, i still dont see why he wouldnt make power past 17psi.

[VeilSide]

Cloud, here is this......Long time ago Napalm built a SOHC motor, doing exaclty what you wanted to do. He used the E-manage to tune he Powerful SOHC motor only to dissapointment he ended up having motor issues because the Emanage could only tune so far.

After busting up his new SOHC motor, he decided to do the EVO setup. Obviously you all know the result, his car is a F****** beast. Is Napalm still here? Well anyway, he used the AEM EMS because he had to with the EVO Set up.

My point is, if he used the AEM from the start he probably would still have a built SOHC motor (that is if he didn't go EVO setup).

[cyberbrain]

a EMS is a awesome tool. but there is some that a EMS is not a option, like myself. I need to pass a ODB2 inspection as REQUIRED by the state. He didn't have go use the EMS, he figured it would save him time to do it. FLASH is running the DOHC setup on the stock 3g ecu. Personally I think the best route is evo 8 ecu. This is a easy step for 5speed guys, but I am going to attempt to make it work with a auto.

[CloudINC00]

Originally Posted by CloudINC00

The new plan, build the block and use the reflash + e-manage combo to tune it properly.

Are you guys not reading the posts? I said in my FIRST POST that I'm ditching the SAFC and going with the e-manage + reflash cable (which I'm already messing with). Sometimes "veterans" like to get big headed and forget to read - the first rule in forum posting.

but thanks for the suggestions.. haha

[CloudINC00]

going to use the T3/T4 56 trim hybrid with DSM flanges so I can keep my manifold and downpipe.

Here's the link:
http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/turboparts.shtml

[CloudINC00]

Originally Posted by toogood11

cloud, a sohc head wont flow enough to make power after 17 psi.

I thought 17psi was the limit for a stock SOHC head? I already have a camshaft and I'm planning on doing +1mm valves (which were bought) and polishing the ports (not too much, the only thing worth port-matching would be the exhaust manifold because the intake manifold is stock)

[CloudINC00]

Balla:

Originally Posted by XwP1ayawX

If you're building the head the 4g63 valves fit

I was assuming he meant all 4g63s... is there something I need to know?

I looked up some info:

4g63T
stem diameter - 6.6mm
length - 4.31"
intake diameter - 35mm
exhaust diameter - 31.5mm

According to my Haynes manual it says the stem diameter matches (6.6mm) but the length does not. there's a service limit though, right? Our cars require a length of 4.421"... service limit: 4.402"... 4.31 is smaller than the service limit.

[cyberbrain]

you will just have to make sure the valves clear the pistons.

[CloudINC00]

the pistons have reliefs in them. But what I meant was that our stock valves are longer than the 4g63 valves.

[balla4880]

dohc valves are already about 1mm bigger than stock 3g.

Springs are going to be alot more load on them. That could cause a couple of issues.

lash adjusters may be able to take out the slack between the valve and lifter but will prbly tick loud.

Also, wouldnt hurt to check for any valve to guide clearance issues

[CloudINC00]

so technically its +2mm O/S? I don't think the head can be modified for +2mm, can it?

And (about the length) the service limit for our head says 4.402" so can the lash adjusters really compensate that much slack? the DOHC valves are 4.310"

[CloudINC00]

the order was changed for stock 4g63 valves, no more +1mm O/S. We'll see how much bigger they are than the stock 3g's valves (apparently 1mm)

[XwP1ayawX]

I'll have to check what the hell he did. I know the 1mm over are set in there now, but that issue with the length worries me now.

[Chief Brody]

Originally Posted by VeilSide

Dude what the F****!!!!! were you thinking.

Look man, I haven't heard a person TILL THIS DAY ON THIS FORUM used 780CC injectors. For the power you want (12-16 range) hell, 440's can handle that and more.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!. When is anybody going to learn that this car is not a damn DSM nor is it a SUPRA, you can't mod this thing with those damn half ass rinky dink fuel management systems. Sure the E-manage, AFC, S-AFC etc are good. But where do you see these system mostly in? DSM's, Ricer Civics etc. Those cars can tune on a dime.

With this 3g ECU we try to make a relationship work with piggyback systems, and all I've read were people steady having problems left and right. I don't give a shit what piggyback system you have this car is too damn smart for that. The Mitsu engineers knew what they were doing when the car was built, and they didn't want our asses fu****** with it. But there is a loop hole.

GENTLEMEN GO GET THE AEM EMS. Fellas, please trust me on this. I had a 3g modded with the SDS with engine work and I decided to go EMS just to save a hassel and easier tuning. Boy was I thankful, guys........I never had one issue, never had one engine light on, never had any strange noises etc. It ran perfect. I sold it because I'm getting into bikes now (should have done that in the first place).

The key to making the EMS work is you have to have A GOOD TUNER.

Although I share your advice that a serious turbo/engine build setup require a serious management, a al EMS or reflash, I disagree with your characterization of the 3G ecu as as somehow fundamentally different than others and hard to tune. Other than the incorporation of the long term fuel trim to open loop (which has been documented for quite a while and identified on other Mitsus) there is nothing special about our ECUs.

Instead, I would put it like this. Tuning timing is absolutely critical in a moderate to high-power NA to turbo conversion. There is no piggyback that has demonstrated that it is consistently able to adjust timing on the 3G. Moreover, altering the airflow signal to compensate for larger injectors will only get you so far. So the only real options are to reprogram your existing ECU to make these changes or replace it completely.