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Old 06/09/2019, 07:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hyundai Azera Tuning

Hey everyone, so recently I bought a 2013 Hyundai Azera, and I'm pretty stoked about it and I kinda actually want to tune it a bit. I'm not talking crazy big Garrett turbos or anything, but something that would be fun for daily driving but since the Azera forums are deader then a doornail, and not many people even touched the car performance wise, I'm gonna ask y'all

How do you know if a car can be boosted on stock internals and be half reliable? I know the car would need a tune, an exhaust and probably a freeer flowing intake. The car has a 3.3 V6 and I was thinking about just getting a turbo off a Genesis Coupe and building a kit. Someone has said this about the Genesis turbo

"The turbocharged, intercooled 2.0-liter engine with Dual Continuously Variable Valve Timing balances everyday driving efficiency with generous low-rpm torque. Unlike traditional turbos, it works best at everyday driving speeds and is designed to run on regular unleaded fuel.

The beefy 306-hp 3.8-liter V6 has Dual Continuously Variable Valve Timing and a Variable Intake System for both low-end torque and high-end power. The V6 engine has a high performance intake and exhaust system, for more power at all engine speeds, responsive free-revving character and a throaty rumble."

So with a V6, and a small turbo, could it be doable?

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Old 06/10/2019, 05:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Your real problem will getting past all the new-age codes and emissions faults if you start messing with anything. Secondly, having room for it.
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Old 06/10/2019, 09:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Usually you know if an engine can handle a power increase by learning from people that did it without blowing up their engines. Since there don't seem to be many people that have done it, you'll be the person people learn from.

Also looking at compression ratio and the octane level fuel it requires as an NA motor is a good first start. High compression ratio and premium fuel even before you put a turbo on it can indicate you're in for a tough time.

Also might not even have to worry about the engine, the transmission might go before the engine even thinks about breaking. Good luck.
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Old 06/10/2019, 11:19 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks for your response guys!

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Your real problem will getting past all the new-age codes and emissions faults if you start messing with anything. Secondly, having room for it.
Yeah, the codes and emissions I'm gonna have to look into, I wonder if they're similar to the Genesis'. Even though they are two completely separate engines I wonder what similarities they have.

So room would be awkward but not bad, there is quite a bit of room below/behind the engine, however if i wanted to keep the turbo on top then i could relocate my battery and change out my intake and make room there.


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Usually you know if an engine can handle a power increase by learning from people that did it without blowing up their engines. Since there don't seem to be many people that have done it, you'll be the person people learn from.

Also looking at compression ratio and the octane level fuel it requires as an NA motor is a good first start. High compression ratio and premium fuel even before you put a turbo on it can indicate you're in for a tough time.

Also might not even have to worry about the engine, the transmission might go before the engine even thinks about breaking. Good luck.
So I did some more research and the engine is a Lambda II G6DH equipped with VVT and GDI. It's compression ratio is 11.5:1 with regular 87 octane gas required.

So I'm not very familiar if that is a high compression ratio so if someone could explain to me if it or shoot me an article about compression ratio in relation with turbocharging that would be great.

Edit: I just found that a slight variant of the engine that is twin turbocharged is used in the Kia Stinger, Genesis G70, Genesis G80, and Genesis G90 and it seems as if it's compression ratio is 10.0:1

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Old 06/10/2019, 11:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That's a pretty high compression ratio. Newer engines are designed to avoid detonation better and the 87 octane requirement is a good sign, but it might be smarter to try to see what those factory turbo engines are running for compression ratio and pistons and start there. Also the GDI is probably helping it run the high compression on 87 octane.

Quick, basic explanation is when your fuel mixture is compressed in the cylinder, the likelihood of it detonating before the spark plug fires is dependent on cylinder pressure and temperature. Higher the temperature and higher the pressure, more likely it is to detonate. Higher compression ratio means that the engine is compressing the mixture to higher pressures before it ignites it with the spark plug. Higher boost pressures will also increase your mixture pressures because the mixture is starting at a higher pressure before it's compressed. This is why you usually see turbo engines with lower compression ratios than NA engines. The critical point of detonation is different depending on at least engine design, but ambient temperature, fuel grade, and tuning parameters also affect it.

Detonation is bad because it happens at the wrong time and damages your pistons and rotating assembly. Minor detonation will decrease power and break your engine over time. Major detonation will destroy your engine faster than you can blink.

People can make recommendations on what is a good compression ratio to start with on this engine, but until someone builds it and tests it, no one really knows for sure. That's why I'd see what hyundai did on the version of this engine that is turboed and go from there.

Edit: Google search says Subaru STis are running anywhere from 8.1:1 to 10.6:1 ratio. Also says the lancer evolution was running 9:1. 2018 Golf GTI is running 9.6:1. Take from that what you will. 11.5:1 is a substantial increase IMO.

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Old 06/10/2019, 12:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddd View Post
That's a pretty high compression ratio. Newer engines are designed to avoid detonation better and the 87 octane requirement is a good sign, but it might be smarter to try to see what those factory turbo engines are running for compression ratio and pistons and start there. Also the GDI is probably helping it run the high compression on 87 octane.

Quick, basic explanation is when your fuel mixture is compressed in the cylinder, the likelihood of it detonating before the spark plug fires is dependent on cylinder pressure and temperature. Higher the temperature and higher the pressure, more likely it is to detonate. Higher compression ratio means that the engine is compressing the mixture to higher pressures before it ignites it with the spark plug. This is why you usually see turbo engines with lower compression ratios than NA engines. Higher boost pressures will also increase your mixture pressures because the mixture is starting at a higher pressure before it's compressed. The critical point of detonation is different depending on at least engine design, but ambient temperature, fuel grade, and tuning parameters also affect it.

Detonation is bad because it happens at the wrong time and damages your pistons and rotating assembly. Minor detonation will decrease power and break your engine over time. Major detonation will destroy your engine faster than you can blink.

People can make recommendations on what is a good compression ratio to start with on this engine, but until someone builds it and tests it, no one really knows for sure. That's why I'd see what hyundai did on the version of this engine that is turboed and go from there.

Edit: Google search says Subaru STis are running anywhere from 8.1:1 to 10.6:1 ratio. Also says the lancer evolution was running 9:1. 2018 Golf GTI is running 9.6:1. Take from that what you will. 11.5:1 is a substantial increase IMO.
Thanks for the info! So with all that, is there anyway to lower your compression ratios through an ECU tune?

And as for the transmission, I cant find anything for it
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Old 06/10/2019, 01:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Compression ratio is determined by the structure of your engine. It's calculated using the volume in a cylinder at top dead center and the same at bottom dead center. Compression ratios are commonly adjusted by using pistons that have faces with different shapes and heights.

With some engines, you also have the option to change the cylinder head to something that has a different size combustion chamber. Old V8s had lots of options for pistons and cylinder heads so builders would piece together a wide variety of configurations. Most modern engine blocks will not bolt to any other cylinder head than the one that it was a designed with so people usually have custom pistons made or they buy some off the shelf that someone already designed and mass produced. Wiseco does this with a wide variety of engines and are pretty good about taking custom orders.

You can reduce boost pressure using a tune if you're feeding too much pressure into the cylinder, but you'd have to change a physical component of your engine to change it's compression ratio.
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Old 06/10/2019, 04:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddd View Post
Compression ratio is determined by the structure of your engine. It's calculated using the volume in a cylinder at top dead center and the same at bottom dead center. Compression ratios are commonly adjusted by using pistons that have faces with different shapes and heights.

With some engines, you also have the option to change the cylinder head to something that has a different size combustion chamber. Old V8s had lots of options for pistons and cylinder heads so builders would piece together a wide variety of configurations. Most modern engine blocks will not bolt to any other cylinder head than the one that it was a designed with so people usually have custom pistons made or they buy some off the shelf that someone already designed and mass produced. Wiseco does this with a wide variety of engines and are pretty good about taking custom orders.

You can reduce boost pressure using a tune if you're feeding too much pressure into the cylinder, but you'd have to change a physical component of your engine to change it's compression ratio.
So even though the compression ratio is a bit high for this car, and given the regular gas, would custom pistons probably still be needed if the boost is only running at about 8 psi? Also I'll look into how the pistons vary with the engines in the Genesis since it is the same engine, just boosted
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Old 06/10/2019, 04:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Someone more experienced with engine building is going to have to answer that one. You may have to experiment for yourself while you're tuning. Start low with the boost pressure and increase until you can't control detonation with tuning. It's risky, but that's what happens when you are a pioneer.

If you do need other pistons, you might not need custom ones, just ones out of the turboed version of this engine.
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Old 06/11/2019, 11:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Sounds good! Thanks for the help!
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Old 06/17/2019, 08:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Hey, me again

So I'm thinking about getting a aftermarket CAI system put onto the car

My question though is should I build one or buy one from another car and slightly modify it?

The Azera (and any car that shares this engine for that matter) doesn't have a CAI system, so would I be better off buying one made for the 3.5L genesis coupe and modify it a little to fit, or should I make my own?



Also thinking about upgrading the brakes to the Brembo ones from the Genesis Coupe, the dimensions for my brakes rotors are F:12.6 x 1.10 R:11.2 x 0.39 and the Genesis is 13.4" F / 13.0" R

It was stated on their forums that "Brembo Brake equipped Coupe wheel is 19", brakes are 13.4" F / 13.0" R" my wheels are 18 x 7.5 so can they fit?

I know for the eclipse that for the Evo Brembo swap the brakes were actually smaller than the Eclipses (if I remember correctly). So should I try to find something smaller or could I go for the bigger sizes? And how will I be able to figure out if I am able to swap them?

(I'm more so looking about swapping the calipers)

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Old 06/18/2019, 05:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
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A CAI would be useless if you go with your original plan since it'll just have to be taken off. Wheel measurements won't help unless you know the size of the rotor and caliper on the brembo setup. Easiest thing to do is just see if one of your wheels mounts onto a brembo setup. Or get measurements.
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Old 06/18/2019, 08:24 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Often, brembo calipers don't stick out much further in the radial direction, but in the axial direction towards the back of the wheel spokes due to a monoblock configuration. If the rotor diameter is increasing by a lot, then it seems like you have to worry about both.

My recommendation is if you are set on the brembos and you know the genesis wheel will fit your car, buy just the brembos first and try them with your current wheels. If they work, you're all set. If not, get a set of the genesis wheels.

Also, as suggested above, if you have access to someone's genesis and can test fit your wheels on it, that's a good option too.

Finally, isn't your stock intake a CAI? I thought most factory intakes draw air from outside the engine bay now.
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Old 06/18/2019, 01:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks yall!

So with the Brembo setup the rotor is 13.4" F / 13.0" R but I havent been able to find the caliper measurements so I'll probably go the route of just test fitting a wheel on (or seeing if we have the same wheel mesaurments).

My worry is the back wheel. I'm wondering if the brake caliper will be able to fit back there, and with the upgrade I WOULD have to upgrade BOTH the caliper and the rotor? (My thoughts are saying yes but I'm double checking).

Ehhhhh, kind of, it's a similar setup to the eclipse were the intake vent looking part sits below the hood, I'll try to get a photo of it when I get home.

Also we were talking about GDI system being a part of the compression, so if you were able to deactivate it, would your engine compression lower and therefore be easier to boost or am I crazy?
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Old 06/18/2019, 04:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I would stick with matching rotors if you are changing calipers.

GDI describes how fuel is injected into your engine (Gasoline Direct Injection). You'd be disabling your fuel injectors if you somehow disabled GDI. While possible, I don't think you want to go down that road... For that trouble just get a factory turbo car.

Also I doubt the GDI system has a practical effect on effective compression ratio. Only thing I know of that does is forced induction which is why you need to start low when adding a turbo or supercharger.

I mean, if you wanted to try forced induction on a higher compression engine, you probably could make some power. You just can't run very much boost pressure (at all) and you have to carefully control it. Not sure how much power you'd get so I'm not sure if it's worth it, but if you can't find pistons, experimentation might be your only choice. I know some people were supercharging BRZ motors when they first came out. They would just run really low pressures. Your choice. It's risky IMO.
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Old 06/18/2019, 04:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Just looked this car up. Are you sure you want to turbo this thing? It already has almost 300hp and it's going to be a project to throw a turbo on something like this with no aftermarket support and all of the problems that come with modifying a car with 2013 electronics. It's fun to talk about the exercise, but there are way better options out there for adding power to. For example, anything XT from subaru, turbo accords, turbo BMWs, turbo Audis, really anything that came with a turbo from the factory.

Like I said, it's fun to run through the exercise, but this sounds like a huge project, especially for what I'm assuming is a daily driver. Maybe stick to brake and suspension upgrades for now and see where this goes?
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Old 06/18/2019, 07:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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LMAO I meant to ask about the variable valve timing.

And yeah I wouldn't mind, it has almost 300hp but low end torque SUUUUCKS. Turbo charging is an idea WAYYYY down the road, like probably in a couple years and honestly the more I think about it the more I think i just might engine swap it with the engine from the Kia Stinger because it's the EXACT engine, just with turbochargers but programming stuff will be a pain.

What I was mainly looking about doing though is getting a small turbo for low end torque. I'm not really looking into making this a power horse (famous last words) but just something to have some fun with.

But yeah up until then itll probably just be the usual mods just because there's nothing for the car so almost everything will be experimental.

While I'm at it, might as well look into supercharging and see which one would be better/easier.

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Old 06/19/2019, 03:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Just buy a stinger in the end, those bottom ends are better fortified and meant for that pressure being applied, I see non turbo 3.3’s coming into the shop with rod knock just with normal daily driving habits.
Those short blocks are being cover by warranty as well.
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Old 06/19/2019, 07:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Just buy a stinger in the end, those bottom ends are better fortified and meant for that pressure being applied, I see non turbo 3.3ís coming into the shop with rod knock just with normal daily driving habits.
Those short blocks are being cover by warranty as well.
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Lol thanks man, so for the non turbo 3.3, what should i do/not do in terms of regular maintenance and things I should keep my eye on?
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Old 06/19/2019, 09:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Update on brake upgrade: So after researching this for a bit I found that there is a brake kit upgrade that is available for the Azera in which the measurements are closely similar to the Genesis Coupes, and front and back brakes will cost ~3k, so if that's the case then I'm just gonna swap the Genesis brakes after test fitting......I just gotta find everything to make it work
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Old 06/20/2019, 10:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Lol thanks man, so for the non turbo 3.3, what should i do/not do in terms of regular maintenance and things I should keep my eye on?
The oil change intervals are the biggest issues, stay on track, and put decent gas in there. These things suffer from carbon build up due to lack of secondary port injection, and will cake up with grime in the crank case if left with lack of maintenance.
If taken care of they are good runners.
If you tune it I recommend an efficient n/a tune.
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Old 06/20/2019, 10:45 AM   #22 (permalink)
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As far as the brakes go, that sounds like a similar situation to the eclipse. There were brake upgrade kits, but they were really expensive. While not cheap, it was much less expensive to get a set of used brembos off of an Evo and some new Evo rotors since everything bolted right up.

Keep an eye on the forums, ebay, and salvage yards near you. Someone is bound to pitch their Genesis into the woods at some point. Brake calipers usually survive something like that unharmed.
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Old 06/20/2019, 06:36 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The oil change intervals are the biggest issues, stay on track, and put decent gas in there. These things suffer from carbon build up due to lack of secondary port injection, and will cake up with grime in the crank case if left with lack of maintenance.
If taken care of they are good runners.
If you tune it I recommend an efficient n/a tune.
Is there any way to clean it or no?

And I wonder how much a tune would be

Oh also, do you know what transmission is in the Azera? I'm not sure if they have a universal transmission they pair with the 3.3L or if its just for the Azera

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Old 06/20/2019, 06:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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As far as the brakes go, that sounds like a similar situation to the eclipse. There were brake upgrade kits, but they were really expensive. While not cheap, it was much less expensive to get a set of used brembos off of an Evo and some new Evo rotors since everything bolted right up.

Keep an eye on the forums, ebay, and salvage yards near you. Someone is bound to pitch their Genesis into the woods at some point. Brake calipers usually survive something like that unharmed.
Yeah that's what I'm doing, theres a cool site called car-part.com and it shows you were all the wrecked cars are and what parts are available, pretty neat site
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