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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
00' V6 RIPP SDS Build PART 2! Spring 2012 update last post!

Hello all,

I am currently working on a 00 V6 with a RIPP SDS kit on it. The car starts and idles, but as soon as you touch the throttle is chokes out and dies. Basically, this car has had to many hands under the hood, and I have the dirty job of removing everything.

The car came to me with an MSD 6AL Multi Spark ignition kit/coil pack kit on it, RIPP Meth Injection, RIPP Black Box, RIPP map pressure sensor, and the A'pexi Neo Controller all trying to properly run the car. Yes thats right, 2 piggy back managements, and a rev limiting MSD box. I am in the process of removing EVERYTHING listed above and converting over to EVOscan tuning software with a flashed ECU. I realize doing all of that does not guarantee it will run properly, but spending time trying to make it run right as it was would be pointless, when it already starts and idles.

I have some issues of concern however, the engine has low compression pistons, shot-n-peened rods, and headwork, not to mention RC440cc injectors (RC650cc injectors installed in the elbow of the charge piping but currently uninstalled). So I need help having some one get me started with a tune that can at least get the car started and idle. Or maybe if someone has a better idea on how I can tune this car, OTHER THAN A PIGGYBACK SYSTEM.

I also had an issue where I couldnt connect to the ecu to datalog simple things such as iac, coolant, rpm, speed, bank 1 o2 and others. I have a palm pilot that works on every other car Ive ever worked on, is this because of the black box?

Any comments/help is greatly appreciated :)
 

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Angry Gorilla
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Well big maps is where you would want to start for tuning that is.

Also, why would you remove the msd ignition? You always have the option to put a really high threshold chip in it. If you are running higher than 12 psi you may need it anyway.

And what excatly have you removed so far? If you remove all the piggy backs and you don't scale your injectors properly using ECU flash you would have a very rich condition trying to run 440s.

This may also seem like a dumb question but is your MAF hooked up?

You can either stay Black box or switch to big maps. Don't try to just use ECU flash you will never get it tuned right.
 

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So let me get this right it has 440cc primary injectors along with 650cc injectors as well?? If so thats your problem right there your flooding the car with too much fuel. What are the AFR's?

You have 2 routes to go. Either put the stock primary injectors and use the black box with SFS ripp system. Or take out the SFS system along with black box. Reroute the fuel system and convert to a suck thru set up. Convert over to the big maps either deleting the immobilizer on 00 ecu or converting to a newer ecu.

Also get rid of that SAFC its not doing any good
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Well big maps is where you would want to start for tuning that is.

Also, why would you remove the msd ignition? You always have the option to put a really high threshold chip in it. If you are running higher than 12 psi you may need it anyway.

And what excatly have you removed so far? If you remove all the piggy backs and you don't scale your injectors properly using ECU flash you would have a very rich condition trying to run 440s.

This may also seem like a dumb question but is your MAF hooked up?

You can either stay Black box or switch to big maps. Don't try to just use ECU flash you will never get it tuned right.


Also, why would you remove the msd ignition?
I removed it for two reasons. 1 - I didn't trust/like the way it was installed, whenever I get the car running right I may install it later on. 2 - To simplify any issues with getting the car to run properly with remapping/flashing the factory ecu.


And what exactly have you removed so far? If you remove all the piggy backs and you don't scale your injectors properly using ECU flash you would have a very rich condition trying to run 440s.
I have removed the MSD (All thats left is the wire from inside the distributor), the aeromotive FPR (Im awaiting an fittings and the rail adapter from 3sxto bypass the factory FPR), I unplugged the black box so I could figure out what it was exactly, but its still wired up, and I removed teh Apexi Neo (it had the jumper harness for it so it took 5 seconds). I understand the car will not run properly with 440cc injectors, that is why I want to re-write/flash (whatever you want to call it) the factory ecu to run everything, with no piggy backs, and no MSD (for now)

This may also seem like a dumb question but is your MAF hooked up?
MAF is hooked up, I was considering buying a new/re manufactured one from an auto place, but I was going to try and see if I could test it before I do that, does anyone have a DIY on how to do that?

You can either stay Black box or switch to big maps. Don't try to just use ECU flash you will never get it tuned right.[/QUOTE]
I want to completely remove the black box system. I want to use the factory map sensor (I have an Omnipower 3bar and the factory one, I can use those right?) Im confused, what do you mean by flashing? When I say flash, I mean where you use the Openport2.0 with evoscan and program the computer. (what does everyone in the eclipse world call it so I can use your lingo from now on to reduce confusion?). I have read a little about this "big map" thing, but what exactly is it? My interpretation of it was that it is a fiel for an ecu that is very well programmed.

Seeing as how I have the black box, should I just use that and tune the car? Or should I do the openport setup instead, which would be easier/better? I think openport is the way to go...
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
So let me get this right it has 440cc primary injectors along with 650cc injectors as well?? If so thats your problem right there your flooding the car with too much fuel. What are the AFR's?

You have 2 routes to go. Either put the stock primary injectors and use the black box with SFS ripp system. Or take out the SFS system along with black box. Reroute the fuel system and convert to a suck thru set up. Convert over to the big maps either deleting the immobilizer on 00 ecu or converting to a newer ecu.

Also get rid of that SAFC its not doing any good
So let me get this right it has 440cc primary injectors along with 650cc injectors as well?? If so thats your problem right there your flooding the car with too much fuel. What are the AFR's?
Yes it has those injectors, but the 650ccs are not hooked up, no clips or fuel lines are attached. the car has no wideband installed, but I just received my Innovate LC-1 yesterday, however I should have bought an AEM instead I think.

You have 2 routes to go. Either put the stock primary injectors and use the black box with SFS ripp system. Or take out the SFS system along with black box. Reroute the fuel system and convert to a suck thru set up. Convert over to the big maps either deleting the immobilizer on 00 ecu or converting to a newer ecu.
What do you mean suck through system? Are you referring to the way it is from the factory? Pump to rail rail to regulator, and regulator to tank? That is my plan, except bypass the factory FPR with the adjustable aeromotive regulator and gauge. I would prefer to keep the 00 ecu as I already have it, but what would I need to switch to a different year ecu, what are the benefits to switch ECUs for a newer year?

Also get rid of that SAFC its not doing any good
Its already gone, first thing to go. When I was in display mode the TPS would jump around like crazy, probably mixed signals from the black box, msd, and neo...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
For shits'n'grins, here are some photos I took of the management combo on this car...















 

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You simply need a tune, nothing you've been using has been able to provide it. You were using way too many different systems, you need to stick with one or a complimentary pair. The SAFC, , the A'pexi and the Ripp boxes DO NOT WORK. Plain and stated, they just don't work so get rid of those. I don't know anything about the MSD setup so I won't comment further on that. You can tune with the larger injectors via ECUflash and a good Big Maps ROM. If you don't want to run a hacked ROM then use ECUFlash and a fuel controller (that stays separate of ECU inputs and outputs) to control the SFS.


You need to do a serious amount of reading if you don't even know what suck through is. Suck through is a MAF setup where the MAF is placed before the compressor so you're sucking through it instead of blowing boost through it. Our MAF works better in suck through form.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You simply need a tune, nothing you've been using has been able to provide it. You were using way too many different systems, you need to stick with one or a complimentary pair. The SAFC, , the A'pexi and the Ripp boxes DO NOT WORK. Plain and stated, they just don't work so get rid of those. I don't know anything about the MSD setup so I won't comment further on that. You can tune with the larger injectors via ECUflash and a good Big Maps ROM. If you don't want to run a hacked ROM then use ECUFlash and a fuel controller (that stays separate of ECU inputs and outputs) to control the SFS.


You need to do a serious amount of reading if you don't even know what suck through is. Suck through is a MAF setup where the MAF is placed before the compressor so you're sucking through it instead of blowing boost through it. Our MAF works better in suck through form.
You simply need a tune, nothing you've been using has been able to provide it. You were using way too many different systems, you need to stick with one or a complimentary pair. The SAFC, , the A'pexi and the Ripp boxes DO NOT WORK. Plain and stated, they just don't work so get rid of those. I don't know anything about the MSD setup so I won't comment further on that. You can tune with the larger injectors via ECUflash and a good Big Maps ROM. If you don't want to run a hacked ROM then use ECUFlash and a fuel controller (that stays separate of ECU inputs and outputs) to control the SFS.
I understand what you just said, thats why the plan is for all of the piggyback kits to go. I understand the aspect of computer modifying and modifying a car in general, I am just trying to learn how you guys are doing the tuning, and with what software/hardware. It varies from manufacturer to the other. Again, what is this Big map rom you are referring to? Also, what is SFS? I just need a vague definition on both please.


You need to do a serious amount of reading if you don't even know what suck through is. Suck through is a MAF setup where the MAF is placed before the compressor so you're sucking through it instead of blowing boost through it. Our MAF works better in suck through form.
I know the difference in MAF systems, i was just confused by the way he worded it. Currently the car is a blow through setup. Ill need to get silicone hoses to redo that.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I should note that i do realize asking people to answer simple questions that everyone "should" know makes me look like an idiot. I do not care, I just want to learn about all of this, so I can prepare the car to get tuned by a professional. I just need a map and a little guidance so I can get the car started and running, so a professional tuner can take it from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Update:

I fully removed the horribly installed MSD ignition today, I had to add wire and solder everything back together. I also received my fuel lines from 3sx. Ill be mounting the regulator to the frame rail by the battery, just need to buy another -6 90 degree fitting. I ordered everything I need to convert to a suck through MAF setup. I sent back the innovate wideband, and ordered an AEM wideband. Ill be ordering a real oil feed SS line/fittings for the blower, as the rubber hose with a weak clamp is spraying oil on the engine. I started to remove the black box wiring disaster.

Next is to start looking for a newer V6 ecu. Im told the newer ones respond/work better with big maps....and yes, I know what big maps are now.
 

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I can't believe no one has mentioned the words "stand alone" in this thread yet. There are a few options that have been proven to work with the V6 platform including the AEM EMS, Haltech, Electromotive, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but reflashing the stock ECU can only really go so far since it can't really understand boost, which is probably why there were all of those piggy backs attempting to control what the stock ECU can't. I would recommend trying to sell the piggy back units to recoup some of the cost of a stand alone unit and go that route.
 

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I can't believe no one has mentioned the words "stand alone" in this thread yet. There are a few options that have been proven to work with the V6 platform including the AEM EMS, Haltech, Electromotive, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but reflashing the stock ECU can only really go so far since it can't really understand boost, which is probably why there were all of those piggy backs attempting to control what the stock ECU can't. I would recommend trying to sell the piggy back units to recoup some of the cost of a stand alone unit and go that route.
The only reason i didnt mention standalone is because of the cost. You can flash the stock ecu with a patch now that will read boost so thats the new trend now. Some have got it to work some havent
 

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Update:

I fully removed the horribly installed MSD ignition today, I had to add wire and solder everything back together. I also received my fuel lines from 3sx. Ill be mounting the regulator to the frame rail by the battery, just need to buy another -6 90 degree fitting. I ordered everything I need to convert to a suck through MAF setup. I sent back the innovate wideband, and ordered an AEM wideband. Ill be ordering a real oil feed SS line/fittings for the blower, as the rubber hose with a weak clamp is spraying oil on the engine. I started to remove the black box wiring disaster.

Next is to start looking for a newer V6 ecu. Im told the newer ones respond/work better with big maps....and yes, I know what big maps are now.
Talk about quick progress. Keep it up and you'll have tuned boost.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I can't believe no one has mentioned the words "stand alone" in this thread yet. There are a few options that have been proven to work with the V6 platform including the AEM EMS, Haltech, Electromotive, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, but reflashing the stock ECU can only really go so far since it can't really understand boost, which is probably why there were all of those piggy backs attempting to control what the stock ECU can't. I would recommend trying to sell the piggy back units to recoup some of the cost of a stand alone unit and go that route.
If Im not mistaken there is no standalone that is directly plug and play with this car, or am i wrong? I have AEM EMS on my S2000 and love it, well...if i could afford to do K-Pro Id go that route but that is a 2,0000 dollar investment.

I was planning on selling the piggyback kits along with the MSD, just going to do that after the car runs...properly.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The only reason i didnt mention standalone is because of the cost. You can flash the stock ecu with a patch now that will read boost so thats the new trend now. Some have got it to work some havent
Well, obviously I want this to work correctly. How can I be sure it will work properly?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Talk about quick progress. Keep it up and you'll have tuned boost.
Thats the goal, I need this car, or the EVO that Im also working on done in less than a month. I need to make room and get my S2000 home so I can start putting it back together.

Busy busy busy, but thats the way I like it :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I just picked up a set of used stock injectors and fuel pump. So now once I put the wiring all back to stock I can see if the car actually runs properly.

Also, I'm starting to consider not doing ecuflash as its not 100% guaranteed it will work. AEM EMS is an EXPENSIVE option, but still my number 1 choice. Im starting to look into AEM FIC as well. There are no jumper harnesses for 3Gs, only 4Gs...

Opinions?
 

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Angry Gorilla
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Is there a reason you are going back to stock injectors? You can use ECU Flash to scale your current injectors and get the car idle just fine. If you don't go into boost you will be okay. The only problem that comes in is that you need big maps to read load over 100%.

Also, it looks like you possibly have a stage three supercharger kit from ripp? If you do, you should have a crank pulley that was been changed and the smaller shaft pulley. If so, you might want the msd. Like I said before, if you go above ~12 psi you may not be able to detonate the mixture.

You could always give big maps a shot and if that doesn't work just use ECU flash to scale injectors and then use whatever you want to tune with. Just my opinion though.


*edit: I just wanted to add, that an aftermarket fuel pump changes nothing to the fuel system. It only had the ability to provide more than the stock system can. There are no ill effects that I have seen. I have had a walbro for about a year now on a n/a setup and no issues at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Is there a reason you are going back to stock injectors? You can use ECU Flash to scale your current injectors and get the car idle just fine. If you don't go into boost you will be okay. The only problem that comes in is that you need big maps to read load over 100%.

Also, it looks like you possibly have a stage three supercharger kit from ripp? If you do, you should have a crank pulley that was been changed and the smaller shaft pulley. If so, you might want the msd. Like I said before, if you go above ~12 psi you may not be able to detonate the mixture.

You could always give big maps a shot and if that doesn't work just use ECU flash to scale injectors and then use whatever you want to tune with. Just my opinion though.


*edit: I just wanted to add, that an aftermarket fuel pump changes nothing to the fuel system. It only had the ability to provide more than the stock system can. There are no ill effects that I have seen. I have had a walbro for about a year now on a n/a setup and no issues at all.
Is there a reason you are going back to stock injectors? You can use ECU Flash to scale your current injectors and get the car idle just fine. If you don't go into boost you will be okay. The only problem that comes in is that you need big maps to read load over 100%.

I am converting back to stock 100% so I can be sure the car can actually run. I need to be sure the car runs perfect before I try and add some tuning components to it. Once I am sure the car operates correctly Ill put the injectors and pump back in. Ill comment further down on EcuFlash after I answer your questions

Also, it looks like you possibly have a stage three supercharger kit from ripp? If you do, you should have a crank pulley that was been changed and the smaller shaft pulley. If so, you might want the msd. Like I said before, if you go above ~12 psi you may not be able to detonate the mixture.

I looked last night and the blower pulley is just less than 3 inches, 2.75 inches I believe. (I didn’t measure the teeth, just the pulley sidewall height). The crank was hard to see but I think its stock. I understand if I go higher in boost Ill need an upgraded ignition, but at this point I just want the car to run properly. I was told that I may have an original RIPP stage 1 kit on the car.

You could always give big maps a shot and if that doesn't work just use ECU flash to scale injectors and then use whatever you want to tune with. Just my opinion though.

Well, big maps aren’t guaranteed to work, so I really don’t even want to bother. My thought is to use AEM FIC with an unmodified ECU, but I would prefer to have the FIC make all of the changes by itself, keep in mind that the FIC can go 100% + or - on the injector scaler, plus you can choose what injectors your running and it gives you a base map to start with, something that is very helpful. I spent some time last night watching AEM videos on how to calibrate the FIC.

*edit: I just wanted to add, that an aftermarket fuel pump changes nothing to the fuel system. It only had the ability to provide more than the stock system can. There are no ill effects that I have seen. I have had a walbro for about a year now on a n/a setup and no issues at all.

From my understanding a higher rate fuel pump will increase flow and force more fuel into the engine given your using only the factory FPR at the OEM spec of pressure (45ish psi I think). Again, to remove more variables to the equation, I'm converting everything to stock to be sure I can get the car to run properly before trying to manipulate the system to run injectors and etc.


My opinions/comments on ECU flash:
From my understanding there is only a SMALL handful of people who have actually gotten the EcuFlash setup to work with boost. I do not want to gamble on something that is not guaranteed to work...its not my car remember, I dotn want this car at my place fro months trying this and trying that, I want it gone in less than a month. Lets not forget I would need to do a ECU swap with a newer unit that works well with Big Maps. That includes swapping pin outs at the ecu, finding a computer that actually DOES work, and changing the distributor (might just need to change out the wheel, not sure). I do not like having many variables with a highly modified care, it simplifys diagnosing issues.

If I were to use EcuFlash, I would want it to run the entire system, period, no other piggyback setups, no nothing. But like I said it’s not guaranteed, so that option is halfway out the window at this point.

Current thought is still to run AEM FIC with a stock computer with an AEM Wideband signal. Or, I can do an AEM EMS system with a harness and run the car that way, I need to talk to the owner and see what he’s willing to do. Keep in mind, and I’m not sure if I mentioned this yet the goal is to obtain 300whp and that’s it. He doesn’t want to go much higher because he doesn’t want to damage the stock transmission in the car. So with that in mind an AEM EMS isnt really needed, well it is, but the cost doesnt doesnt justify the power level wanted.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Another update:

Fully removed the Black Box wiring harness, Autometer Narrow Band gauge and wires, and other misc things that were wired into the car. I just need to finish soldiering two wires and then all the wiring will be complete. Aeromotive regulator is mounted, just need to put one an fitting on.

Awaiting my injectors and fuel pump and I am ready to start this up!
 
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