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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm beginning some pretty intesive research on a DOHC head swap on my 4g64.
I've been a member of this site since March of this year (2006), shortly after buying my car. In that time I've read many things about how well this engine handles boost in its stock form, the fact that it has pretty tough (forged steel?) internal components, blah, blah, blah.

On thing has continued to intrigue me, though: The possibility of swapping my head for that of an Evo or even (I've heard) a Kia Optima!? :scratch:
This would correct what I see as a pretty grevious error on the part of Mitsubishi Motors...
:rant: They gave the 3g platform a V6 as their "performance" engine, phasing out the DOHC 4g63 variants and sticking us 4-bangers with an "economy" single-cam 4g64!....:nuts:

I'm now considering correcting this error. I know it's been done before by a few of our still-active members, so I'm hoping for their guidance through my next 10-12 months of research.
I'm very new to the "car hobby", but I'm spreading myself over a wide number of websites and reading material now with the intent to learn as much as I can about all the components involved.
I also plan to go FI a little futher down the line, but for now I'm using this thread (and this site) to "log" my research and findings, outsourcing and referencing my research for others to see.
I'm also hoping to get some measure of help from other members. However, I've purposely started this thread during this site's less active period!! I'm hoping to avoid too many less informed "comments from the peanut gallery". I'd like this thread to serve, as much as possible, as a concise and informative reference for building on the power of the 4g64.

I'm considering the option of "building" the engine from the crank up, though I'll likely just start with the head swap. I've heard there's a "six bolt" as well as a "seven bolt" variant, though I may be misinformed. Like I said, I'm not entirely familiar with what's involved, but I'm giving myself a full year to learn.
Anyone want to help? I could sure use some input on some of the specifics involved/parts needed....from someone who's done a similar build!
(you know who you are) :wiggle:
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
evolutionm.net

The first site I decided to join in my quest for knowledge. Their vBulletin based forum bears a lot of similarities to ours, so I immediately felt somewhat "at home". I planned to just build my posts in hopes of finding a suitable EVO head for sale(I believe it's the VIII and IX that synchs up? :dunno:), but I found myself impressed with the way the site was run. Also, those Evo guys know their stuff!! A week into exploring, I decided to <a href="http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=234396">introduce myself and announce my intentions</a> much like I did in this post. :bigthumb:
Go check it out, as I've gotten some interesting response so far and I could use some help "decoding" some of the advice given! ;) post 11, 13, &14 in particular...
( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=234396 )

I also ran across an amazingly detailed <a href="http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313">teardown of a 2.3L 4g63</a>.... I plan to hound that threads author a bit to see what I can learn from him. ;)
He seems friendly enough, and we have the same first name! :hug3:
( http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=220313 )



I've got a couple other sites in my .... sights, including a couple DSM boards and... well, I'll likely join up on the "other site" just to see what sort of info might be floating around there.::ghey3:
Again, any suggestions are more than welcome! :yesway:
... Eclipseforum.com
... GalantCenter.com
... hmmm
 

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post 11, 13, &14 in particular...
11:
PAPITOSMURFEVO8 said:
from what i found the evoeclipse is alive the brakes mount up so the rims mount up so i believe you can mate the whole head set up to 4g64
He is saying that the Eclipse can use the Evolution's Brembo Setup and the Evolution's Wheels. What this has to do with the head bolting up, I :dunno: but we already know that all of the above can be done.

13:
PAPITOSMURFEVO8 said:
the 2ng gen eclipse is a close match only evo comes with a better turbo and tranny should bolt in if you have a awd eclipse and bigger cams and better internal parts in the block or you can put in a 2.4 evo engine
Before I go any further, I would like to advise you not to take too much advice from this guy. I believe he is trying to say both the evo and gsx are awd and have a 4g63. I really don't know what he is talking about, lol. Also you can let him know that the evo has a 2.0. Actually, I think he believes you have a 2G and wants you to use the "better turbo and tranny" of the evo. It also looks like he is telling you to beef up your engine internals or switch it with the evos. :whonose:
14:
KOEvo said:
I believe all stoker Evo's use at least part of the 4g64's. It is a nearly identical motor to the 4g63, and a lot of the same parts are interchangable.

This being said, you have a ton of options; and you can pretty much duplicate any stoker Evo setup you see on here.

Though i'm not sure how correct this is, but i think the 4g63 crank in the 4g64 block makes a 2.1L destroked engine (these suckers usually rev past 10k); and i think the 4g64 crank in the 4g63 block is the 2.3L stoker that everyone runs. (Might be the other way around, but either way, you get the point.)

It sounds like cost wise, the 2.1L stoker is best for you, being you can use your current block; though you need to source a 4g63 crank, 2.1L pistons and rods, and what ever else (see SlowBoyRacing). This is a great setup though, as Curt Brown used this motor to run 10's in an Evo on the stock turbo (fastest stock turbo record holder to this day). Plus, who doesn't want to rev past 10k?

Anyway, i think you made a good choice compared to the V6 model, and i have to admit that i would do the same thing, because of the potential.

Good Luck!
He is suggesting that you use an evo crank to destroke your engine down to 2.1L. I don't think this would allow you to rev to 10k with the sohc head though. The evo owners can just swap in our crank to get a 2.3L stroker motor. They don't need to use our entire block as most of our +.4L are from increased stroke not bore.

I think you just need to follow Napalm, Balla, and Flash. It is great to broaden your horizons when researching, but alot of these people may not be knowledgeable about cars, let alone our platform.

I could be completely wrong with me translations, so if anyone wants to correct me feel free.
 

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As far as your project goes, I believe Flash was able to swap heads without using a standalone and has a N/A eclipse. He is probably your best source for information.

You will have to modify your current exhaust manifold &/or piping to mate up with the evo head. I also suggest that you use an AEM EMS.

As far as saying our block can handle boost fairly well, I would also advise you to build the entire engine or at least use forged pistons. It doesn't make sense to swap the head and leave the block stock imo.

Good Luck, look forward to seeing your progress.
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #5
^^ Thanks a lot for some very insightful info! :twothumb:

Don't worry, I'm taking every piece of advice I get from "non-Eclipse boards" with a (pretty large) grain of salt. I realize that "PAPITOSMURF" fella may be a bit confused as to what I have and what I'm wanting to do with it.

Since I don't plan on tackling this project until about a year or or so down the road....
I'm mostly just "broadening my horizons", as you put it.
In fact, here's what I'm currently reading just as a means of going back to basics:
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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
http://auto.howstuffworks.com

This site has some great write-ups on the mechanics of an engine. A lot of it is a review.. (even for a n00b like myself), but I think it's recommended reading for anyone who wants to know more about the basic workings of an internal combustion engine!
Basic introduction is divided into FOUR MAIN SECTIONS of interest:
<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm">Introduction to How Car Engines Work</a>-- A very basic intro. It may even seem patronizing to some of the people who find themselves in this section of Club3g... :p
<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm">Cylinders, Displacement and Other Engine Parts</a>-- starts with the three basic cylinder arrangements in automotive engines, covers displacement, then goes into other parts that translates the engine's energy. wraps with "what can go wrong" :happysad:
<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine2.htm">Valve Trains and Systems</a>-- starts to get interesting here as well as more relevant to my project. also includes a link to another author's article on "<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm">How Camshafts Work</a>"...hmmm :)
<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine3.htm">Producing More Power</a>-- :devil:YESSss! ... haven't read into it yet, but seems to be a link-heavy discussion on upgrading an engine. (the basics):cool2:
followed by a FIFTH PAGE:
<a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine4.htm">Lots More Information</a>-- their standard list of related HSW articles...

This whole site is a great reference tool. I recommend even visiting the "<a href="http://science.howstuffworks.com/">Science Stuff</a>" section for some of the technicalities! .....:bigthumb: (I'm such a geek)
 

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I Deliver Porsches
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you can do the optima head swap...
its whats im doing... i have the head and an extra block...
just gotta save more for the performance parts, porting blah blah blah...
flashbluers has the parts list
and i have them saved as WORD and EXCEL files..
 

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Ok so from what I understand you swap in EVO cams and cam gears. Bolt up a turbo and then get it tuned. Now what kind of internals do you use for this? Do we then use EVo internals? Like I said there is a good feature in D-Sport this month about an EVo with a 4g64 block.
 

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Ok so from what I understand you swap in EVO cams and cam gears. Bolt up a turbo and then get it tuned. Now what kind of internals do you use for this? Do we then use EVo internals? Like I said there is a good feature in D-Sport this month about an EVo with a 4g64 block.
You use the entire evo head. You upgrade the block using aftermarket 4G64 parts. You could upgrade the head too, using aftermarket evo parts, it all depends on how much you are willing to spend. In order to tune it, I would use a standalone.

Flash already has a great writeup on how to do this and what is needed, and Napalm, Balla, and DNS-EN have all already done the dohc conversion. :bigthumb:

Any of them would be the best to ask questions to, but I don't know if you want to try and discuss it with them unless you are 100% positive you are doing this, and are ready to begin.
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
FlashblueRS and his thread(s)

Okay, HERE is Flashblue's thread containing the DOHC Head Swap Parts List, and a bit of discussion... (mostly just this Forum's regulars taking digs at one-another) :):flamed::fawk2:

Here's the profile for <a href="http://www.club3g.com/forum/member.php?u=470">FlashBlueRS</a>, from which you can check into his other posts..... just don't bug the guy with n00b Q's until you've read into things a bit. ;)
Honestly, I don't know how this escaped me before now. I've done my fair share of Searching, including checking posts by those I know have done this....
I guess I'd focused on the apparent "pioneer", <a href="http://club3g.com/forum/member.php?u=3539">DNS-EN</a>.(Mr. "1st 4cyl DOHC 3g" himself)
Thanks again for steering me right, <a href="http://club3g.com/forum/member.php?u=3520">gst4g64</a>!! :twothumb:
I'll emphasize that all three above members can and have been a great resource to our community, so please read their posts before burying them in questions they've likely posted answers to!


I'm going to continue compiling data in this thread, regardless of all the other threads showing how "it's already been done".
Just consider this my contribution and best attempt at "merging" all relevant threads and info I can find... without actually having the abilities a Moderator would have in doing so! :happysad:
I'm not ready to take on this project quite yet, so I'll log my research as much as possible....... even to the most basic of information and its sources.

......now I've got to :sleep:, so more notes and links will follow later.

EDIT: <a href="http://www.club3g.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1689484&postcount=11">One more link</a> before I get to bed for a bit.
____/\ That's actually one of Flash's posts from the first thread linked in THIS post, but I thought I should give it some emphasis.

I'd read some of that info he linked before, though it was a bit over my head at the time.... thus the research and my need to "get back to basics"! ;)
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks again you can keep up with my upgrade thread if you would like I'm sure I'll run into something interesting. If you meant to be condescending you'll have to do better than that.

http://club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78337
Thanks for the additional link! I'll definitely keep an eye on that, as I'm sure I could learn from your progress. :bigthumb:

People seem to mis-read my tone quite often, so I guess I should explain that I wasn't meaning to be condescending in the least. I just figured that you were the most likely candidate to have some extensive write-ups, since you've advertised your pioneering spirit in your user tag... s'all.:wiggle:
 

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Well what parts are what for this swap? I kno about the head but do u then buy cams and cam gears for an EVO? Pistons, connecting rods, exhaust and intake manifolds? Where do they come from? 4g64 or EVO engine?
 

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Well what parts are what for this swap? I kno about the head but do u then buy cams and cam gears for an EVO? Pistons, connecting rods, exhaust and intake manifolds? Where do they come from? 4g64 or EVO engine?
That was posted already. Just look up.

Okay, HERE is Flashblue's thread containing the DOHC Head Swap Parts List, and a bit of discussion... (mostly just this Forum's regulars taking digs at one-another) :):flamed::fawk2:
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
So does this head swap make your car illegal? Assuming you change your car registration to Modified. (That's for PA anyway...)
That's actually a pretty good question, and brings a new consideration to bear.

However, the point of this thread is for me to share some of my research and encourage others interested in this option to do their own research!!
(using whichever of my sources they find useful)
I'm sure the above question can be better answered by investigating your local registry laws rather than asking random questions on an INTERNATIONAL forum.
_________________________________________________
Incase anyone's wondered why I haven't logged any new findings for a bit, it's because my current head is causing me some trouble.... so I've decided to put my research on hold until I get my car running well in its current SOHC state.

Until then, here's another <a href="http://www.motorpowerinc.com/specs/4g64.html">LINK</a>.
These are the specs for a stock 4g64. You may notice the "last update" was in.... 1999?!? This is because the 4g64 was first introduced in a SECOND GEN Eclipse Spyder. I should emphasize that this version was transversly mounted, meaning the belts and pullies face the driver's side fender.
Still, the base specs as listed should be the same, and that site has some other useful info.... like in the FAQ section. :cool2:
( http://www.motorpowerinc.com/specs/4g64.html )
 

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Y would the car actually become illegal? I don't quite get why it would. I dont think swapping a different head on your engine would make it illegal, but I cannot say this for sure.
 

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MINI by proxy
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Discussion Starter #19
Y would the car actually become illegal? I don't quite get why it would. I dont think swapping a different head on your engine would make it illegal, but I cannot say this for sure.
EXACTLY!
I'm sure the above question can be better answered by investigating your local registry laws rather than asking random questions on an INTERNATIONAL forum.
Now please discuss this elsewhere, if you must debate.... K? :)
 

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Ok very stupid question. The parts list for the evo head swap that was up here. Instead of buying say a stock evo 8 fuel rail and cams, just go ahead and buy aftermarket ones while your doing the swap?
 
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