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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I wanted to share my last week tuning experience with my car..

last week i changed my injectors on my car in prevision of my sds i plan on installing as soon as i receive my headers...

so after a nice and trouble free install i started the car

It staggered for few seconds before the idle started to fine tune itself for a few minutes. after those few minutes the idle was stable and the A/F ratio acting normally.no chek engine light, no more black smoke...

then i went for a drive...

in normal driving condition, the car was ok, but as soon as it hit 3500rpm it went bitch rich and struggled to accelerate, normal you would say..i do too..

then i switched my SAFCII to a preset(experimental) setting i had previously prepared, to start tuning with...

i floored it a ran ok up til 5400..

there i started fine tuning it to have a nice a/f curve on a drag track, using my Gtech, the timeslip and my A/f ratio meter and my ear..

I succeeded in tuning it well enough to make a few run even with nitrous on...

but my engine light lit up in the meantime... i reset, its gone and dont come up again until another 100 miles

so i ran like that for a few days, testing a different speed and throttle, fine tuning my safcII to put my car a least as good running as it was before.but my car was drinking fuel like a hoar...

then a the start of thisweek, i installed my BB to see how it will make my car react, and to seeif it work like its suppose to do; make my car run ok without the SAFCII, even with no boost...

if it cant then its crap

i decide to keep my SAFCII hooked-up to monitor knock sensor and my THR opening but brang it back to flat settings..

the same idle learn period happened when i firststarted it

first thing i noticed : my car was knocking more at idle than before... (before BB the reading never got past 40 during idle, after it never got under 40, rather staying around 80-120 at idle..) during acceleration the reading was always 0... always
but with the BB i have a reading 20 and over...

the chek engine lgiht got on earlier this time (10 min. drive)

the same thing happened when i floored it than before, it staggered and tried to accelerate due to over richness..

so after a while i turned my SAFC on again and got similar result at firts, but after a while the A/F curve was not good anymore, i had trouble(hesitation) even under ligth acceleration under low RPM

now im at making a new tune with my safc and things are a bit better...


my piont is if the BB cant make my car run ok with no boost the how can it run fine with boost?

its supposse to "bend" the fuel curve in fonction of boost, and should work even with low (no) boost

and thats wath i wan tto find out

if i dont, then EMANAGE ULTIMATE!
 

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Meow.
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Dude, there is a learn in period, of I believe 1500 miles. You aren't suppossed to floor it. The black/grey boxes have programmed algorithms that learn the a/f mixture. You aren't suppossed to screw with it. Just let it be. After it's break in period, it will be fine. How could you not know this?
 

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Got Boost? Me either
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littleman54321 said:
Dude, there is a learn in period, of I believe 1500 miles. You aren't suppossed to floor it. The black/grey boxes have programmed algorithms that learn the a/f mixture. You aren't suppossed to screw with it. Just let it be. After it's break in period, it will be fine. How could you not know this?
:agreed:

i guess somebody forget to tell the Doc that there was a learning period for the BB/GB.
 
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Why is everyone missing the main point?

The black/gray box is "PRE-PROGRAMMED" for the specific stage that you run. It does work along with the ECU to hold the tune, but you CANNOT just install the thing on a stock motor when it was programmed to run boost. It would be like tuning a car with an Emanage and 12 PSI of boost, then removing the turbo/supercharger and still running the Emanage tune..... :nuts:

He's trying to run the black box on his stock motor before installing the Vortech and running boost !!! LOL

Also, the black box tune is set for different injectors, timing, etc.

What are you thinking ??? This isn't like your SAFC that does MINOR adjustments to A/F on a stock setup. Why don't you program your AFCII to correct for 6, 8, 10, 12+ PSI of boost, then run that tune on your stock motor with no boost, and see what happens.
 

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Got Boost? Me either
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Hollywood said:
Why is everyone missing the main point?

The black/gray box is "PRE-PROGRAMMED" for the specific stage that you run. It does work along with the ECU to hold the tune, but you CANNOT just install the thing on a stock motor when it was programmed to run boost. It would be like tuning a car with an Emanage and 12 PSI of boost, then removing the turbo/supercharger and still running the Emanage tune..... :nuts:

He's trying to run the black box on his stock motor before installing the Vortech and running boost !!! LOL

Also, the black box tune is set for different injectors, timing, etc.

What are you thinking ??? This isn't like your SAFC that does MINOR adjustments to A/F on a stock setup. Why don't you program your AFCII to correct for 6, 8, 10, 12+ PSI of boost, then run that tune on your stock motor with no boost, and see what happens.
after re-reading....i can see what you are talking about now. When he says a trouble free install....i thought he was talking about the SDS. but it seems that he was talking about the injectors. then he hooked up the BB on the stock engine. am i correct on reading that?
 

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Meow.
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Ahha! I found it...I misread this sentence (his second one)

"last week i changed my injectors on my car in prevision of my sds i plan on installing as soon as i receive my headers..."
 

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Got Boost? Me either
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littleman54321 said:
Ahha! I found it...I misread this sentence (his second one)

"last week i changed my injectors on my car in prevision of my sds i plan on installing as soon as i receive my headers..."
i think all of us misread the sentence, except for hollywood
 
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Eclipsed4utoo said:
after re-reading....i can see what you are talking about now. When he says a trouble free install....i thought he was talking about the SDS. but it seems that he was talking about the injectors. then he hooked up the BB on the stock engine. am i correct on reading that?
YES

He wanted to see if the BB was any good before he used it as intended (WITH THE SDS)
 

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Got Boost? Me either
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Hollywood said:
:uh: well...i can see this engine going bye bye pretty soon
 
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Eclipsed4utoo said:
:uh: well...i can see this engine going bye bye pretty soon
How many pings does it take to get to the center of a stock V6 piston?

Let's count the knocks.... 1...2....ah-tha-ree....CRUNCH !!!

(I'm probably dating myself by using the old tootsie-roll pop commercial, but WTF).

You know, I'm sure we will see him posting up in a few weeks when he finally installs the "whole" SDS kit and his motor blows up and then he'll blame the kit :rant2:
 

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The BB won't pull back timing unless the MAP sensor see's boost....if there is no boost MAP present the BB will simply run stock curves.

Lastly the ECU is still looking for a stock condition, so installing just injectors and asking the car to drive will create the condition you described...the ECU will fight to straighten out the tune....hence the learn period of a few 100 miles...once the ECU tries everything it can to fix itself it submits and the BB will "straighten" it out... the catch is everything needs to be in place as:

O2 (or O2 simulator)
Cats (or O2 simulator)
Tune up (Cap rotor...)
Fuel press
Vacuum
Timing

So yes, we have a rocket scientist on our hands....see a guy like this will blow his shit up and then point to the kit....
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
nobody understand what i said right??

before telling me i will blow my engine educate yourself a bit...


and before yelling at me about the learn-in fact, why dont you ask questions for what i did and what i dont...

so if nobody interested in my experiment other than telling shit about my work you rather stay off this thread..

Tuning car being my profession i KNOW the risk and precautions involved in what im doing, ans doing it at my own risk..

so those who connected three wires in their life stay away from this thread..

THIS EXPERIMENT IS ABOUT THE LEARNING PERIOD

to see if the ECU and BB LEARN something for real, how they do it and why

there is no reason a BB wont work on a car with no boost if all other element are there, if IT REALLY DO WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TO DO..

The BB settings CANT be preset, because each car is different


is anybody understand the point about the BB being ADAPTATIVE like our ECU then it should adapt to a no boost condition...

so if you think im wrong explain it without bullshit, insults or ignorance...

FACTS, EXAMPLES , EXPLANATIONS migth do the work...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
npeifer said:
The BB won't pull back timing unless the MAP sensor see's boost....if there is no boost MAP present the BB will simply run stock curves.

Lastly the ECU is still looking for a stock condition, so installing just injectors and asking the car to drive will create the condition you described...the ECU will fight to straighten out the tune....hence the learn period of a few 100 miles...once the ECU tries everything it can to fix itself it submits and the BB will "straighten" it out... the catch is everything needs to be in place as:

O2 (or O2 simulator)
Cats (or O2 simulator)
Tune up (Cap rotor...)
Fuel press
Vacuum
Timing

So yes, we have a rocket scientist on our hands....see a guy like this will blow his shit up and then point to the kit....
actually this is the only relative comments that make sense...

and reading it just confirm my theory ( now practice, because i drive the car everyday...)
 

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Got Boost? Me either
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you know....writing normal sentences and paragraphs will GREATLY help us out to understand exactly what you are saying. now your second post was a little better since you did EXPLAIN what you were actually doing and why. now that you explain WHY you were doing this and WHAT you were doing, reading the first post is a little easier.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
english is NOT my language so please understand that i try MY BEST to make readable sentences..

si tu veut ca en francais tu va voir ca va etre beaucoup plus clair!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
and if i would have made paragraph poelpe would have told me its cluttered and unreadable ( I cant please everybody at once)
 
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Doc Nitrous said:
The BB settings CANT be preset, because each car is different
It can't? That's funny because when I was at RIPP mods, Ross was showing me some maps he was working on and telling me how he was taking out timing, adding injector pulse width, etc.
Also, wasn't this in your original post?
Doc Nitrous said:
then i switched my SAFCII to a preset(experimental) setting i had previously prepared, to start tuning with...

So you're saying that the SAFCII can be "preset" but the Black Box cannot?

The fact is, if you installed the BB which was PRE-PROGRAMMED for your specific SDS setup and ran it on a stock motor with no boost, you will have problems.

And don't get pissy, people here are trying to help, but you can't expect them not to be SHOCKED when they see posts about "experiments" that don't work, then bash the manufacturer.
Doc Nitrous said:
then a the start of thisweek, i installed my BB to see how it will make my car react, and to seeif it work like its suppose to do; make my car run ok without the SAFCII, even with no boost...
if it cant then its crap
 
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npeifer said:
The BB won't pull back timing unless the MAP sensor see's boost....if there is no boost MAP present the BB will simply run stock curves.
I'm not sure about that. The BB has more than just a MAP input. Alot of wires are interupting the MAF, reading the TPS, etc. These things all play a part of the overall tuning function of the BB. So do the other values that Ross puts into each of MANY different tunes he has written for different applications. I know because he has written a specific tune for my car since it has some different mods done like port/polished etc. In fact, the increase in the "rate" of boost being built up from P/P my head required "adjustments" to the tune I was running before.

Also, other fuel management systems would do the same thing, wouldn't they? If you programmed an Emanage for 10 PSI of boost, then removed the boost, what would happen? Don't TPS, load, etc. play a part in the tuning? The fuel controller will still see these inputs as "the same" yet there will be no boost.
 
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