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Discussion Starter #1
First of all, like the thread title states, this whole thread could be viewed by some to fall totally in the NOGAF bin - if that's the case, just move on :lol:

For a while I've really been planning to do an all out N/A build on my car. I still think that it's possible with the right cams, P&P, high compression, and tuning, to make awesome power with that route - I don't think it's been fully explored past the bolt ons, especially considering the new products/developments of the last year or so.

However, I'm not the one to do it. I have to face it, the first time I tried to pull my plenum to change the rear spark plugs, I fucked up an injector and had to resort to a shop to finish the job. While I understand the theory behind a lot of the stuff, I don't have the necessary skill to actually DO it (yet...that's for down the road when I live in a place with a garage and have more money for more tools, engine stand, etc.). I can change the oil, change the plugs/wires on my wife's 4 cylinder, change rotors/pads, install an air intake - the simple stuff, but the more complicated stuff I generally screw up or just give up on because I know I'll screw it up (I lasted about 15 minutes into the timing belt change and said...oh, fuuuuck no).

So I've decided, barring some completely unforseen event, that I'm going to go the Stage 1 SDS route with a suck through conversion. I know some people say it's not necessary to suck through the MAS, but it seems that's the main reason for most of the SDS related driveability issues. Specifically I plan to get the tuner kit and the suck through conversion at some point from Tearstone. I'll also upgrade the injectors and tune with an eManage.

Why SDS and not turbo? Well, for one, I've already got headers, and a 2.75" catback (Invidia). Sure I could sell the headers and stick with the Invidia with a turbo, but I've already got a pretty good exhaust for the SDS as is. Past that, though, other than the fact that from where I am now SDS is slightly cheaper (now that I have headers), I don't really have any other solid reasons. There are several very knowledgeable people who live pretty close to me that I'm hoping to get help from in installing the SDS, I don't want to just drop it off at a shop, I want to be involved in the install and learn about what's going on first hand.

The only other mod that I have so far that would lead in the direction of the SDS is my clutch, and I'm not sure it'll hold - it's a Spec Stage 1. I'm planning this summer to lower the car (AGX + S-Techs), do new brakes, buy some Proxes 4 225/45/17s, and also try to get Deyeme firm front/rear, flex side mounts. Anything else in the near future I should look at buying/upgrading before I start working towards the ultimate goal of the SDS?

I also want to buy some shitbox of a car to have as a beater by winter. I plan to hold on to some kind of beater car from then on so if something DOES break on the Spyder, I'd at least still have a car to drive.

I wanted to be different by doing the N/A build as well, but honestly I've come to the realization that 99% of the 3G's I see on the road aren't modded as it is, and of the 1% that are, most aren't modded past intake, wheels, taillights, maybe exhaust. More than likely if/when I get the SDS, Kris (Clipse3GT) and I will be about the only 2 in all of Northeast Ohio (a pretty highly populated area) with ANY kind of FI on a 3G, at least of the people I know of on club3g.com.

Of course, that's assuming Kris's car runs again... :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I'm sorry for the novel...lol I just thought I'd post something about what I've decided and like usual, I got long winded.
 

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Yup once you decide on the stuff I think I can design some cool parts for your sds and do a cool setup for a suck thru.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Clipse3GT said:
Yup once you decide on the stuff I think I can design some cool parts for your sds and do a cool setup for a suck thru.
That'd be even more sweet than just going with the Tearstone suck through conversion (no offense to him). Of course this will be a ways off but I'll be anticipating it for quite a while.

I'm also going to dyno the car this Sunday evening. 3 pulls for $60, that'll give me a nice baseline to compare to when I *finally* get the SDS.
 

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Well if you go suckthru which is what the MAS is designed for, I think we can make you some nice intake piping and get a nice aftermarket BOV, along with some 310cc RC injectors. I think it would work well.
 

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I just installed Ripp's stage 1 on a 2002 GT V-6. I have about 60 miles on the current ECU reset, about 200 on the setup. I currently do not have the Brat installed because my ECU required higher baro voltage (fix s/b on all new Brats), it should be re-installed soon. The car is running great at this point. It hunts a little during warm up, and light load cruise is now near perfect. Throttle up is great. And, the ECU monitors are still not complete. Point being, the new setup seems to run real solid with very little learn time. I have thrown a code or two, but I did not throw any codes with the Brat installed.
 

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TheFranchise said:
fuck that suckthought stuff. blow through is much more effecient. dont kill a descent setup.
Blow thru is a stupid ass setup. I diagree with you shane on that one. The MAS was never designed for boost, it was designed as a suck thru, you try to force and make it blow thru. I think doing it suck thru would provide far better drivability.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
It hunts a little during warm up
"Hunting" a little during warm up doesn't sound like the best thing to me. And from what I've heard/seen, I gather that doesn't really go away with most cars/kits (I can't say all because of course there are going to probably be exceptions).

The MAS was never designed for boost, it was designed as a suck thru, you try to force and make it blow thru. I think doing it suck thru would provide far better drivability.
While, again, I am no expert, from what I've read it definitely makes sense to me that blowing through the MAS would cause screwy readings. At any rate it seems that the arguments for suck through are better than those for blow through - and all of the successful turbo setups that I've seen are suck through.

I'm sure that ditching the BB/Brat and blow through right from the start will raise some people's ire, but I want to do it right the first time and not have to continually tinker with the Stage 1 kit the way RIPP sends it out. Not saying it can't be made to work, but I agree with what I've read from some people that it seems it can be done better with a few tweaks - why not tweak it from the beginning? Ryu claims his SDS (when he had it) ran perfectly as a blow through, and Kris's ideas have all just seemed right on to me, once I can even comprehend them :lol: I'm not planning 16 psi+, only the stage 1 6 psi or so at least at first. Possibly some upgrades then down the line. But what I want, ideally, is a rock solid stage 1, that I can turn the key every day, have it fire up and idle like it's stock, and not have it bog down or die when I nail the throttle.
 

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MAS was designed to only read in negative -14 to 0. It was never designed to run in the positives, once you make the air positive the MAS goes AWOL. Since it dosen't understand the boost, so naturally later after 20 minutes of driving it forces the car into a lean condition.
 

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Clipse3GT said:
MAS was designed to only read in negative -14 to 0. It was never designed to run in the positives, once you make the air positive the MAS goes AWOL. Since it dosen't understand the boost, so naturally later after 20 minutes of driving it forces the car into a lean condition.
I think the MAS is still be able to meter the additional air. The question is how accurately does it measure the volume given the nature of the Karmen vortex system.
 

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Clipse3GT said:
MAS was designed to only read in negative -14 to 0. It was never designed to run in the positives, once you make the air positive the MAS goes AWOL. Since it dosen't understand the boost, so naturally later after 20 minutes of driving it forces the car into a lean condition.

This is why the brat works...

I know this is beating a dead horse but one of it's primary purposes is to keep the engine from seeing "boost" but to continue to meter the airflow...
 

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RIPP 3G said:
This is why the brat works...

I know this is beating a dead horse but one of it's primary purposes is to keep the engine from seeing "boost" but to continue to meter the airflow...
:idea: Or you can just extend 7 wires and make the MAS suck thru again. And save 300 bucks.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Clipse3GT said:
:idea: Or you can just extend 7 wires and make the MAS suck thru again. And save 300 bucks.
Indeed...

And not to get in a pissing match, but the concept of a piggyback for a piggyback just...well...it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I'm already reading about people sending back the BRAT for an upgraded one/new settings in it, because the thing's still throwing codes like Randy Johnson throws fastballs.
 

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Clipse3GT said:
Blow thru is a stupid ass setup. I diagree with you shane on that one. The MAS was never designed for boost, it was designed as a suck thru, you try to force and make it blow thru. I think doing it suck thru would provide far better drivability.
yup both opinions though. you nor any other anti-blow guys have provided any data to suggest otherwise other than what the next "tuner" suggests. DSM blow though MAS all the time. proven more effiecient especially with a upgraded MAF size.
 

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Clipse3GT said:
MAS was designed to only read in negative -14 to 0. It was never designed to run in the positives, once you make the air positive the MAS goes AWOL. Since it dosen't understand the boost, so naturally later after 20 minutes of driving it forces the car into a lean condition.
nope incorrect. inproper tuning causes the lean condition. plz learn this car and its ECU before making bad opinions. i been doing it for a long time now. only reason mine has seemed to work the best is b/c i have had an unlocked RIPP box for 3 years now. tuning, not setup.
 

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Clipse3GT said:
:idea: Or you can just extend 7 wires and make the MAS suck thru again. And save 300 bucks.
extend, more piping, more bends, less efficient and it costs a lot more money for a Tearstone suck through than the better method.
 
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