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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I been reading some stuff, and I am just wondering. With our current ECU is it possible to use the Greddy Emanage Ultimate MAP feature. Doing so would eliminate the need for a air flow metter such as a MAS or a MAF and use MAP to tune instead of using the stock MAS or the GM MAF conversion. Would this be possible to do, and if so what do you need it to get it to work to use MAP to tune the car?

From features of Ultiamte...

Airflow Output Map - Previously labeled “Airflow Adjustment Map” is now “Airflow Output Map”. This can now used to eliminate the factory airflow meter. This is done by directly inputting voltage or frequency in to this map.

Analog Output Map - This feature can be used to eliminate the factory boost cut function on vehicles that are equipped with both an airflow meter and a pressure sensor (i.e.: FC3S, Subaru). Also, on some vehicles, the factory feedback range can be adjusted by outputting a corrected throttle position signal.

Idle Stabilization Map - If the factory idle control valve is a solenoid type valve, this map can vary the valve’s duration to adjust the injection rate. This is used when eliminating the airflow meter.
 

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One Sic Mic
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I wanted to know the same thing back in Oct but never really got a straight answer. I kept getting the whole maf-t explanation. I would also love for someone to be able to explain this....
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
punker9474 said:
I wanted to know the same thing back in Oct but never really got a straight answer. I kept getting the whole maf-t explanation. I would also love for someone to be able to explain this....
Well we all know that suck through works and blow thru works well if you use a GM MAF and Translator, but I think this would work as well. I think all you might need is a MAP sensor and intake sensor, and a wideband a/f controller/guage. And use voltage and tps and put all this into a map. I dunno, but it sounds like it would work.
 

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One Sic Mic
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Clipse3GT said:
Well we all know that suck through works and blow thru works well if you use a GM MAF and Translator, but I think this would work as well. I think all you might need is a MAP sensor and intake sensor, and a wideband a/f controller/guage. And use voltage and tps and put all this into a map. I dunno, but it sounds like it would work.
I have all of that. I'm going to a place called TorqueFreaks down in Portland, OR to tune my car in a little bit better. After really examining my tune a little closer, I'm not totally happy w/ what PinaMotorsports tuned in. TorqueFreaks has Mondo expeirence w/ aftermarket ECU tuning. Hopefully it won't take too long on the dyno since I have a descent base map going. Especially at $150 an hour :eek:
 

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The 11sec club
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well on this car there is no reason to get rid of the mas, but i have tried and it does work. heres what you do

1. disconnect the factory mas sensor.
2. Cut the sensor input and out put wire
3. Add a resistor that sets the output a max voltage
4. Then make negative adjustments in the emanage.
This is a old way of tuning and has no need for this on these car, but if you'd like to try its up to you.
The only reason that this car even has a map sensor is to see if the egr is working.
The mas is a step up in the world then tuning with the map.
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
rtspeed said:
well on this car there is no reason to get rid of the mas, but i have tried and it does work. heres what you do

1. disconnect the factory mas sensor.
2. Cut the sensor input and out put wire
3. Add a resistor that sets the output a max voltage
4. Then make negative adjustments in the emanage.
This is a old way of tuning and has no need for this on these car, but if you'd like to try its up to you.
The only reason that this car even has a map sensor is to see if the egr is working.
The mas is a step up in the world then tuning with the map.
As always great info. :yesway:

However, if you would use a MAP instead of a air flow meter to tune, would it get rid of some of the problems associated with the MAS? Or would hte ECU have a royal fit, and just have the SES light on all the time, since it dosen't see a air flow unit monitering?

I was just thinking if this would work since, I was just thinking of getting a custom fabricated upper intake pipe that runs from the blower to the TB with a BOV, and just get rid of the MAS.

But a better choice you say is to just get a MAF and have more control over the tuning aspect?
 

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Clipse3GT said:
Well we all know that suck through works and blow thru works well if you use a GM MAF and Translator, but I think this would work as well. I think all you might need is a MAP sensor and intake sensor, and a wideband a/f controller/guage. And use voltage and tps and put all this into a map. I dunno, but it sounds like it would work.
we all know the stock maf blow through works pretty well too pending on your HP desires :twothumb:
 

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rtspeed said:
well on this car there is no reason to get rid of the mas, but i have tried and it does work. heres what you do

1. disconnect the factory mas sensor.
2. Cut the sensor input and out put wire
3. Add a resistor that sets the output a max voltage
4. Then make negative adjustments in the emanage.
This is a old way of tuning and has no need for this on these car, but if you'd like to try its up to you.
The only reason that this car even has a map sensor is to see if the egr is working.
The mas is a step up in the world then tuning with the map.
our cars dont have a map. they have a mdp. two different sensors.
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
TheFranchise said:
ya if you get that figured out with the emanage ultimate let us know! might be on my roadmap for the spring upgrade. :yesway:
Well right now, I can take either road. Go with a GM MAF and Translator, and still have metered air, even though it will provide a deeper depth for tuning, the air is still metered. And when you vent into the atmosphere before any air sensor it tends not to like it too much, this goves for all the EVO's, DSM's, etc... I read up on this on the DSM and EVO boards, and they have the exact same problems with the MAS. Either they go the GM MAF & Translator route, which basically meters the air and acts as a SAFC. Or they completely elimate the problems with the MAS & MAF, and go with a solid piece of upper intake, note that you have to use couplings at the blower and TB since if you don't there will be too much vibration. But this way you can just run a solid pipe up to the TB from the blower with a nice large BOV that vents to the atmosphere, I'm sure you could also isntall a Greddy Relief Valve if you want to vent off some boost.

So far these are the two options, I really want to try to go the MAP route, even though the tuning is not as indepth, I think the car would respond pretty well to this, especially for the SDS guys the vent to the atmosphere and don't recirculate the air back to the intake.

I really just want to find out more how to really do this properly. Since most likely you can use a MAP sensor from your Electronic boost guage such as a Autometer or Greddy. Then you can connect a AEM Wideband UEGO to the MAP sensor and from there connect it to the Greddy Ultimate using a pressure sensor harness mod, so you can have the advantage of the self tuning aspect of the car and using a MAP. :eek:

I think it sounds like a pretty good combo in theory, and from what I gather it works, since rtspeed told us how to more or less do it.

The only thing I'm not sure of is if there is a need to run a intake temperature sensor as well... :dunno:
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Found this interesting:

The MAF is a component in a vehicle's intake system through which air flows past a wire that is heated by an electical current. The airflow cools the wire, enabling the MAF to calculate the volume of airflow into the engine. The vehicle's engine management computer then uses this information to calculate the correct amount of fuel to be delivered to the cylinders by the fuel injection system.

Removing the MAF
When tuning a MAF-equipped vehicle to operate in MAFless mode, the MAF is removed. This requires the use of an alternative method of calculating airflow into the engine. On vehicles so equipped, this alternative involves the use of a manifold absolute pressure, or MAP, sensor. The MAP sensor measures pressure in the engine's inlet manifold. When coupled with data regarding the engine's revolutions per minute, or RPM, and throttle position, the MAP sensor can be used by the engine management computer to calculate fuel requirements.

Advantages
By changing the engine from MAF mode to MAFless/MAP mode, vehicle modifiers claim two advantages:

The MAF may pose a physical restriction across the vehicle's intake tract, thereby reducing airflow into the engine. By removing the MAF this restriction is eliminated, potentially improving engine performance.
By moving the airflow measurement sensor from the intake plumbing to a point closer to the cylinders, the time lag from air moving past the sensor to reaching the cylinder can be reduced, thereby improving throttle response.

Disadvantages
A potential disadvantage of converting an engine from MAF to MAFless mode is that where the MAP sensor is used to measure airflow, the corresponding fuel calculations must be performed by the computer based on tables of information programmed by the engine tuner. If other parts of the engine are subsequently modified with an effect on airflow through the engine, these fuel tables must be adjusted to match the revised engine hardware. By contrast, when operating in MAF mode the computer can automatically adjust its fuel delivery based on the airflow data generated by the MAF, even if other engine hardware is changed.

Be aware that MAP based load sites will generally always be in the same place, so a fairly rich mixture on a hot day, may get a bit lean on a cold day where the air is more dense (the main disadvantage of tuning with a MAP sensor instead of MAF)
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
punker9474 said:
Noice:yesway:
Yup, good info indeed. I think if msot people that drive their cars from late spring to early fall. Or have pretty constant temperatures. MAFless setup might work pretty well, as long as no heavy engine mods are made at the time. :yesway:

I think this might be a good way to go for me, so I might be daring enough to try it and see how it works out.

EVO's/DSM's, Subbies all have good gains with a MAFless setup, I can't see why a 3G wouldn't. I guess there is only one way to know and that's to try. If it dosent work well, then you can always add a MAF and just shorten the intake piping a bit and slip the MAF in. No biggy.
 

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Resident Asshole
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TheFranchise said:
our cars dont have a map. they have a mdp. two different sensors.
But "all" SDS kits came w/ an aftermarket MAP sensor you can use to eliminate the MAF right Shane? I mean that is part of the "bandaid" fix ripp implemented eh?

Also... honestly.. I think moving to an exclusive map sensor for tuning and completely eliminating the MAF isn't exactly going to give you the best results for long term tunes. From the preliminary testing I've done w/ the GM MAF and translator on the SDS platform and my personal turbo'd car, it seems to be the way to go. The issues found w/ venting to atmosphere have been all but eliminated and idle surge is practically non-existent.

Variances such as altitude and temp are going to play a big role w/ map tuning and can adversely affect your tune especially if you set the sensors to a normalized value. Eh just my opinion. Sure you can run a map setup but I don't think it's the most efficient.
 

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Ah yes...
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
PharmEcis said:
But "all" SDS kits came w/ an aftermarket MAP sensor you can use to eliminate the MAF right Shane? I mean that is part of the "bandaid" fix ripp implemented eh?

Also... honestly.. I think moving to an exclusive map sensor for tuning and completely eliminating the MAF isn't exactly going to give you the best results for long term tunes. From the preliminary testing I've done w/ the GM MAF and translator on the SDS platform and my personal turbo'd car, it seems to be the way to go. The issues found w/ venting to atmosphere have been all but eliminated and idle surge is practically non-existent.

Variances such as altitude and temp are going to play a big role w/ map tuning and can adversely affect your tune especially if you set the sensors to a normalized value. Eh just my opinion. Sure you can run a map setup but I don't think it's the most efficient.
Yeah I see your point, about the constant differences in weather, temp, altitude, that can affect the tune.
 

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PharmEcis said:
But "all" SDS kits came w/ an aftermarket MAP sensor you can use to eliminate the MAF right Shane? I mean that is part of the "bandaid" fix ripp implemented eh?

Variances such as altitude and temp are going to play a big role w/ map tuning and can adversely affect your tune especially if you set the sensors to a normalized value. Eh just my opinion. Sure you can run a map setup but I don't think it's the most efficient.
no they utilze the map for a direct way to measure boost and thus pull timing per psi measured. not a bandaid really. the blow through stock maf is used as the primary meter along with the critical IAT and baro inputs maintained in their useful positions unlike a suck through design.

totally agree though a bigger and better GM maf is ideal for higher PSI cars
 
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