I don't see any way of gaining 100+ whp off an all motor build. We have fully built 3.5s on the board that are lucky to pass the original 'crank' HP. I'm pretty sure I have heard of mivec 3.8s putting down calculated 300 Crank HP, but not to the wheels.

 

Damn really? I would have thought at least 100hp could be found in these engines.

 

From my reading, Mitsubishi actually engineered these engines very well and there isn't much to gain from them alone.

 

If you really want to get into the theory of it Sky PM me and we'll chat. You gotta get pretty creative to hit those numbers.

BJ makes something to the tune of 240whp 240wtq with his 6g75. Its bored over to 3.9, ported heads and lower manifold, custom XG350 upper manifold, Q45 tb, and a world class exhaust. What he's missing is cams and and a tune. Add those into the equation and you're looking at 270-290whp depending on how fast he can spin it.

A bolted up 6g75 put down 215whp without a tune local to me. That's a standard 6g75 swap with a good intake and exhaust setup.

My fully built 6g74 put down 220whp 240wtq. That's with fully ported everything, RPW 264's, a good exhaust, crappy intake, mild tune and 8.9:1 pistons. Had I gone for NA glory I would've done 10.5:1, a different intake and intake manifold with an overbored throttle body, and a dyno tune upon dialing my cams back. Probably would've been closer to 240-250whp and 260wtq. The big restrictor for my NA output however is the tiny valves, 75's don't have that issue.

All those were 5 speed cars too. The 75 heads can flow upwards of 300cfm so your power output is entirely based on how you support it.

 

Once the car's running strong i'm going to have it dynoed. A buddy of mine has a race shop with a mustang dyno

I'm eager to see what kind of numbers i'll lay down as she sits now.

 

i would think 300 whp with stage 2 cams and a tune on a built engine revving to 7k. if i was going balls to the walls that is what i would do. although it would be hopelessly impractical in a front wheel drive car. a four cylinder camry will more than likely beat you to 60 all the power would be in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. first and second would only be good with slicks and some stiff suspension for the rear. that is why IF i keep mine and do an engine swap again i am doing 6g75 with stock cams and a tune with bolt ons looking for 250 atw. that's is about the most usable power i would think. right now i spin like crazy in first from a stop and at the track i spun second. that's with 180 whp from a mustang dyno and on 235 tires.

 

You always beat the impracticality drum of output with FWD, and its total bogus. Your car is not set up to hook no matter what you say and there is no way to use your setup as a blanket judgement for everyone else's.

I hook second making 45wtq and 60whp MORE then you AT THE WHEELS. That's using super hard all season tires as well and the factory suspension (with 103k on it no less) minus rear lower and front lower control arm bushings AND I do it on cold concrete. Stickier street tires would hook me in first too let alone if they were wider. His car is lighter as well.

Just because you spin the tires doesn't mean its impractical. That's like saying because your engine flows 250cfm while your heads flow 300 merits you filling the ports in the heads. If you can hook in every gear you're not making enough power. If you simply floor it and bitch about it not hooking then you're a moron and its your own damn fault. I could spin the tires with 72 and a bad clutch and I didn't whine, its about how you drive it.

You were right about 1 thing though. Cams at 7k on a blueprinted 75 is recipe for 300whp. Ripp has an old vid of a bolted up MIVEC 75 hitting 290whp. While that is the happiest dyno East of the Mississippi it goes to show that the motor is capable seeing that with MIVEC engaged its a hair under 264 duration with less lift then RPW 264's and the head flow characteristics are within 1 CFM in stock form (MIVEC and non use the same valves).

 

by the way, prepare for low numbers from a mustang dyno

 

not just my car, i have seen many that have trouble hooking. i mean the members on here that have more than 300 whp that hook are using things like coilovers, wide tires (245-255) and summer tires/drag slicks. i am not merely voicing my opinion but the opinions of many. it's simple physics, when you launch the rear of every car squats. in Front wheel drive that causes the front end to lose traction, with rear wheel drive it actually aids in traction. Front wheel drive was never meant to go fast and that is why there are so many problems when you start making real power. when people think i can make a shit ton of power and drive all day, slowly yes but then that's not 300whp. then it's like 100 - 150. but when you want to go to a track and you find out you just made an awesome burnout machine like the twin turbo 4g mivec on club4g that runs 17's yu realize that front wheel drive cars are great grocery getters, and you make them fun, but it is still impractical. i have people ask me all the time "why not do a turbo" and my response is "why? to go slower, burn more gas, spend more money, and buy tires more often? no". 300whp would be pushing the limit for our cars i would sincerely think. hell it's not even a 3g thing, I'm on other car forums and i have seen problems with mazda 6's, mazdaspeed3's, srt4's, hell even the ford focus rs with 300 stock has tons of issues and that comes with a quaife diff stock and bilstein suspension. Can front wheel drive be fun? yes. But should you spend a lot of money to try to make a dedicated fast car? no. Myself along with many others who go from Front wheel drive to all wheel or rear wheel are amazed with how to don't have as many traction issues (with rear new ones can appear especially without a lsd). that is why car makers don't bother with it, they know better, not because they don't know at all.

 

Guys, this thread has nothing to do about the car, only the engine! We all know the battle of fwd traction, so let's keep the bickering out of a performance related thread.

 

agreed. i wouldn't trust the stock bearings to 7k though. i would like to see a 6g75 with a chromoly rotating assembly. i was looking at prices, they are seriously cheap. hard to find a shop that will make custom rods, crank, and pistons though. that would help free power and strengthen the weak OEM rotating assembly. Either that or spend the huge $ for a titanium rotating assembly. i remember a while back a thread about ferrea valves being lighter and stronger than stock. i personally don't know i haven't used them in building an engine before but perhaps someone who has can chime in. also, it would be nice is someone knew where to get different ratio rockers from. i believe our stock is 1.6. going up to 1.7 would help out the top end of these engines.

 

If RWD is so good in any case then why does my friends GTO burn in 3rd at 65 making only 375rwhp? Why does my other friend making 410rwhp with his CTS-V only run 12.01? They're RWD, they squat like crazy, why don't they hook? Hell, there's a local MR2 making 250rwhp and he can't hook either.

A 400whp civic is low 11's with a full interior and street tires. 300whp is a 12 second 3g Eclipse on street tires (no I'm not misreferencing Rob), a 400whp 3g Eclipse ran 11's on street tires, both had full interiors. 3sx's T2 ran 10.8 on a street suspension setup. What do all the cars I mentioned have in common? A little effort was put into more then just the motor and into their launches. What do all the drivers of your tire burners have in common? They didn't put the effort into it, they're too lazy.

Its a takes a set of coilovers and wider tires to hook second in a bone stock GTO. It takes a set of slicks to make that CTS-V hook. Both of the cars I mentioned had 5k+ into them. Tell me why a 2g GST with 175k on the clock, half the car's worth in stereo equipment in back and a bolted up HX40 ran 11.1 all night at the track and got 29mpg on the ride home. Go buy your 350z and find out that it doesn't magically hook, or save you any money in gas and tires. It doesn't magically corner either. Spend some time looking and you'll find a surprising number of 3g's tearing up the road courses and Autox all over the country. Most of them don't waste their time entertaining the likes you and the other haters on this website and the ones who do have provided video footage of a bolted up 3 liters shitting on Z06 corvette's and 500awhp Evo's in our member's rides sections. The best part is they've spent less money on their cars then their competition.

Essentially all factory cars squat, and the only one it doesn't automatically write off your list is something AWD and that's only because those AWD cars come with the extra electronics and such to make them hook and go instead of bogging out. I don't know what you and the rest of you belly achers have against partial throttle. Even at that point, electronic boost control/boost buy gear or a preload launch sequence. The funnest pull I've EVER been a part of was hooking first gear registering only 75% TPS on my logger.

RWD drag cars don't squat either, they set. The builders known exactly how far its going to drop and set the alignment accordingly, you can't do that on a DD or you'll be buying tires all the time so your 350z will still need a stiff ass rear end and thousands in upgrade control arms to make your alignment last. The only people who have it good are are those with a solid rear axle and even they run torque bars and slicks for a drag setup and they won't bother coming to the road course, let alone being overweight prehistoric shit boxes that run automatic drag trannies and get 6mpg. Know what works best on a FWD car? Pretty much zeroed out alignment, perfect for a DD. And what do you know, stiffer rear end is what you're looking at for both a road course and drag strip. Its not the fault of the 3g that our factory bushings aren't worth a damn, its mitsu for putting them in there. The 3g has some fantastic suspension geometry, put some Prothanes in, turn a wrench for god forbid and you'll have less reason to whine.

What it comes down to is what its worth to you. Yeah you gotta drop the FLCA's to do the prothanes, yeah the bushings cost 55$ shipped to your door, and yeah BMW and Nissan owners have to disassemble the rear end to put in aftermarket bushings just so the car will hold alignment in daily conditions let alone on the track and spend thousands of dollars to do it.

Sky here is clearly more mechanically inclined then anyone here bitching about not hooking up. And even if he was it would only be because his suspension and setup hasn't developed that far into it yet.

 

Any mitsu forged crank is good for plenty of RPM. The reason they blow up is because they aren't balanced nor have the tampered hardware to hold the assembly together for those internal velocities.

Blueprint and balance the 72, 74 or 75 lower end with ARP stuff and you can run 7k just fine. That's with the factory pistons and rods too on any of them. Go lightweight forged and you can run more, though you won't find the valvetrain suitable to do it. There are no cams available for the SOHC that make revving that high reasonable from a power standpoint anyway. If you can get the V6 to breath above 6k you're power output goes WAY up very fast.

There's a 3000gt running a 4.6L stroker (trimmed 75 crank) at 9k making 1000awhp. 3000gt's have made 4 digits with each of the 6g7 lower ends minus the stupid 12 valve and the 73. Those are all on stock cranks no less.

Spinning the 75 is its only problem. If you can get it to 7k or even 7.5k with a cam that makes torque up there you'll get exactly what you want. The 75 has lighter rockers then the other 6g7's too.

 

thought the stock 6g75 bearings had an issue revving to 7k? i only said chromoly crank for weight, i know the stock crank is good. but the stock 6g75 rods aren't that good and the 6g74 rods are heavy. if you use chromoly rods two birds with one stone i would think. could of sworn i saw a thread on here from a guy in australia that got chromoly rods.

 

My TL-S put down 276whp and I never had traction issues past first gear. I ran BFGoodrich G-Force TA's.

I understand you guys want to talk about traction and all that theory, but I'm really not interested in that. Firm suspension, sticky tires, firm mounts, a LSD... those a just a few examples of how to get traction.

My SRT-10 put down 417hp and 422 tq completely stock. It lights the tires up at will, and yet when pointed straight- it hooks up like a mother fucker.

What I want to know, who I want to hear from are people who have done these things to their engines to create the power I am looking for. When I start a project I mean it. Before I started my 3.8L swap I spent months researching. So, in kind, that's what i'd like to begin here.

Please don't fill up this thread with information that i'm really not looking for. If I have issues with traction, racing, tuning, whatever, I know exactly where to go.

For now however, I'd just like to hear your experiences and thoughts on the matter of creating NA HP- and maybe be pointed in the right directions.

Thanks!

 

Read my original post then...

 

I did

 

Thoughts good sir? I don't suppose you're in a real hurry to pull the engine out again. :lol:

 

Well my thoughts are this:

I want a high revving engine.
I know that will come from a balanced bottom end, and a very lightweight top end.

I want as much displacement out of this engine that is possible. In every way bore, stroke, whatever.

I have the ability to tune so that isn't going to be an issue. I know that I am going to want some aggressive cams. With that I am also going to want the biggest valves I can find. All manifolds and the heads will be port matched and enlarged. I am not sure which intake I will use at this time.

I have been thinking about a dual stage manifold for a while now. My Megasquirt unit can control a dual stage manifold and that would help upper end HP and low end TQ depending on the intake I choose. I don't want to boost. I don't want nitrous.

I figure that I am willing to spend around $10k on the engine. My transmission can handle the power. I have a great suspension already.

A light weight rotating assembly will be key. Durability will be key. I don't see my exhaust system getting any better. I've got a 90mm Q45 TB already to play with I could get another 3.8L manifold for the time being and get that all working properly and test it on my current engine. Fuel delivery won't be a problem either. Ignition won't be a concern either. Engine cooling won't be a concern.

I'd buy another motor and build it in my garage.

I want to be able to fling the motor to 7500rpm all day long.

Could you imagine the sound?

 

I redline at 7500, and its unlike anything else. Just about shat myself the first time. :lol: 10k will go fast.

7500 is gonna require rods on a 75, they've been bored to 96mm but I'd be interested to see if it can take 97mm, 4.0L, especially since you wouldn't be boosted.

Bigger valves have dropped horsepower on a couple of 4g's, Mitsu made them literally as big as they can possibly be before they become a hindrance to performance. RPW makes the only cams but you'll have to get a set of NA stage 4's made if you want power up there. I say it again though, 300 cfm is possible with port work and the stock valves. That is billet LS1 head territory and more then capable of over 300whp in a big V6.

If you end up with anything less then 272's a dual stage manifold would be pointless. I make 210wtq at 1800 rpms and that's on a smaller boost motor without the turbo. Even with 272's you should have plenty down low to get you off the line with 4 liters. In any case if you're revving that high a custom manifold with a large surge tank will outperform anything factory. The problem with the 3.8 mani is that elbow can't be enlarged. I've been looking at making a stainless steel tubular intake manifold and O-ringing the lower manifold and porting it to match. That would let you control runner length, surge tank volume and run velocity stacks like they do in the drag mani's for other cars. At the same time some creativity with the heads and the ability to match the lower ports to them means you could keep substantial volume from the tank to the valves, zero bottlenecks.

Probably no influence on what you decide to do but I'm big into the RnD with this stuff and I enjoy it way too much not to say anything.

 

Sounds like a big waste of money. I'd love to see you go through with it but let's be honest, it's only gonna lead to dissapointment in the end. With half the budget you could build a nice turbo setup and out do any N/A 6G7X.

I don't think my turbo 3G made 300 and it was overkill on good street tires. Even with an LSD it just spun till about 60mph. The thing that sets the 3G apart from all the other fwd cars out there is torque. They just don't mix together at all.

For an all out motor I'd be going ITBs for sure. Years ago I think someone even made a kit. RPW maybe. For the exhaust, 1-7/8" primaries, 2-1/2" collectors into a 3" merge. Place a cut-out somewhere around the firewall.

 

When you talk about a whp goal, you need to mention what type of dyno you want to achieve that on.

On my setup i made little effort on N/A tuning. It was powerful enough and safe afr is all i was concerned with while off the bottle.

Here are the basics that would effect N/A power of my 75 setup. Endeavor engine, Diamante intake and TB, Port match manifolds, K&N cai, Megan headers, Stage 2 cams/springs, MSD, Stock cat-back. These are mild mods to that engine. The car made 245.8whp 252.4wtq on a Mustang Dyno.
I was hoping for ~15whp or so more but the exhaust wont flow enough. You can actually hear it on the dyno...

I think 300 whp on a mustang dyno is easily achievable with a better build/setup. Thats lots of power... On a dynojet you could see well over 330 whp with that same 300 whp car.

So....Maybe 350whp is achievable on a dynojet with the right build after all.:dunno: But who cares, you might get beat by the guy who only made 318whp on the Mustang Dyno. Its just a number. Get your car making the most power, on whatever dyno tuner you can trust to make it run safely... THATS the goal, isnt it?

 

damn, when/if i do mine it will already be where i want it lol. i thought about doing head gaskets and 6g72 cams and visiting a dynojet but i would rather drive the 6g74 till it dies then build it and sell it. can't believe you made 60 more horsepower with boltons with a 6g75 damn.

 

Title should have been*

"What do I need to push 25psi on my 6g75?"

That would be some reading material.

Good luck with the search. A lot of good guys here to lend opinions, you're in the right place.

 

A very close friend of mine has a race shop and builds 7 second rotary cars. He is the most knowledgeable car-guy I know. He's got the mustang dyno. I will go to him for tuning and the dyno.

I appreciate the info guys. I'm throwing this out there because it excites me and I like having something unique. I know I already do but i'd still like to go further.

 

You guys really need to go over the components in a 6g72 & 6g74 motor. They have the same restrictive cylinder heads, crap for compression to make anything decent, with and without cams added to them/

The 6g75 has a hell of a base platform for people to build from for an N/A motor as long as you know how to properly piece everything together. Sure anybody (ok not just "anybody") can go out and throw a turbo at a motor and make more power "for less money." This is obvious because in order to build an N/A 6g7x series motor to make an excellent and useable powerband off a dyno will require a hell of a lot more work and funding.

Think about it, seriously sit back and think about this. How many people have taken their 6g72 or 6g74 and thrown boost at it without rebuilding the motor and maybe pushing 8-12 psi? How many have taken additional steps to say add ARP studs, or just a set of forged pistons to the motor so they can raise the boost pressure a little more...or heck even stay the same?

How many 6g72/6g74 motors have we seen within this community even push past the 350whp mark to truly justify building a turbo motor? If anybody wants to argue the usual line of "anything above X hp is impractical in FWD" that is fine, but when we see simple and basic bolt-on 6g75 Non-MIVEC swaps making 240ish or more to the wheels you have to ask yourself was that money spent for a supercharger or turbo really worth it for maybe 60whp over an essentially stock 3.8L motor swap?

If you want to build a turbo motor, then build one...but don't be shocked when it doesn't really make an impression on people with an output in the 300hp areas in this day and age.

Remember, boostzealot's 6g74 was making 220-230whp with a set of camshafts, head work, exhaust, intake, and raised compression. His current 6g7X motor is a rebuilt 6g75 bored slightly with a machined deck height, mild head work, custom intake (same from his 6g74 build), and a full exhaust, running OEM 6g75 camshafts which made 240whp without any tuning done. In simple terms, the 6g75 in a very basically modified form made 20whp over his fully built 6g74.

 

How many 6g72/6g74 motors have we seen within this community even push past the 350whp mark to truly justify building a turbo motor? If anybody wants to argue the usual line of "anything above X hp is impractical in FWD" that is fine, but when we see simple and basic bolt-on 6g75 Non-MIVEC swaps making 240ish or more to the wheels you have to ask yourself was that money spent for a supercharger or turbo really worth it for maybe 60whp over an essentially stock 3.8L motor swap?

There's been plenty of guys push past the 350 mark in the last twelve years and the same results follow. They either blow their shit up or come to the realization that it was a big waste of money. You can't hook up on street tires and you end up breaking every component of the driveline if you run slicks. Sure you can have fancy axles built and all that other jazz but who wouldn't rather put it towards a car that can go fast? The 3G is not a rich man's race car so nobody will ever dump the kind of money it takes to actually put some numbers up. On a budget the 6G7X will never be competitive from a dig or any form of racing for that matter. Roll racing is about the only place it has a chance and in this day and age, you'd better be making 500whp to even compete with bolt on V8s.

I only still frequent this board because I love to see people testing the limits of this platform. Heck, the number of people who are doing anything could be counted on two hands. In the end though, my bone stock Camaro would rip even the best N/A 6G7X build to shreds. That's the point I'm trying to get across. You can throw thousands upon thousands of dollars at this car and get your butt whooped by a hillbilly in a rusted out mustang time and time again if you choose to go the N/A route.

Also, with the new found glory of reading past 100% load in ECU flash, it's pretty silly to even bother messing around with all motor. Boost is cheap if you know what you're doing. With chinese ebay turbos and the ability to weld, anyone could make 300whp for under $2K.

 

^i like this guy.

i still need to get mine on a dyno. i just have been putting it off because i think i will be disappointed... this auto tranny is going to kill my whp.

 

Auto transmission or not you will see and feel the differences. People always seem to have very high hopes and expectations from this platform in regards to performance and horsepower numbers. Reality is unless you truly commit to building something serious, you will never be "satisfied" with your results unless you know you did everything possible and not just pick and choose to hope for big gains.

Like I mentioned, very few outside of the 3000 GT platform community have yet to break the 400whp mark for this V6 motor platform, can't explain why this is besides people seeing just how much money is required and taking the shortcut to "gratification."

Personally, if I were to build one of these V6 motors for boost my goal would be, and always has been to reach or exceed that of where WarmAndSCSI left off because that is truly an impressive and worthy bench mark for the Galant or Eclipse platform and IMO deserves the full credit of building a true boosted setup. Not to discredit others here who have put a RIPP kit or other turbo kit on their V6, I respect what they choose to do...it is just my own personal opinion on the choice and final results of going boost people can see for themselves within this community.

 

What do you have against a 300whp turbo build? RIPP ran high 12's with their POS "linear torque band" garbage mobil making 325. Even the most bolted up slicked 6g75 is going to run mid 13's at best. 60whp is a lot, 40 over stock put me in the 13's. If you're going to build the motor, then there really is no point to use the 75 because you could build any other motor cheaper and make whatever power want. If you build a motor, you're a fool to make anything less then 350whp, I'll grant you that. But then again, whose making that on a built motor?

A set of forged pistons sets the 72 and 74 alike up for 425whp if one wishes. The 74 is good for closer to 500. Obviously you'll be blueprinting the lower end with ARP stuff if you're going to do that but that is literally the only thing it takes to be ready for that kind of power. People have made 500whp on stock cams, 450whp on stock heads, 400 on the god forsaken V5, and everything in between there and stock.

If you have a decent compressor you can make power well above the factory redline on the "stock" motor setup. Add some fidanza cam gears to that and you'll be revving up to around 7k. If you pick the right turbo and put it on a well breathing setup on the 72 you could make plenty up high with a great torque band.

People don't realize how retardedly easy it is to make these cars faster then just about any "premium" sports car you'll find on the street. Those who have failed have only done so out of neglect and laziness in either their build or their driving abilities or both. 300whp on the stock motor, 250whp on a bolted up engine swap, 400whp with 3k into the motor.

 

People don't realize how retardedly easy it is to make these cars faster then just about any "premium" sports car you'll find on the street. Those who have failed have only done so out of neglect and laziness in either their build or their driving abilities or both. 300whp on the stock motor, 250whp on a bolted up engine swap, 400whp with 3k into the motor.

This is the reality.

The 250whp you are referring to I assume is M-Rod's 6g75 swapped Galant?

At this point have we seen anybody with some actual results of a built 6g75 N/A even? So far all we have seen is a few bolt-on modified swaps with some minor motor work, nothing extensive such as higher CR, cams, and so forth.

 

I am excited to see them. I've been waiting for one of you to make a custom manifold for it.

 

My engine builder & his mates race 3 Magnas with 3.8's....all put out about 230 kw- 315 hp @ tfw. They are running stock pistons & rods but 3.5 bearings & regularly pull 7200rpm & have only spun a couple of bearings in the last 4-5 yrs.
They've been balanced & run fairly big cams & 90mm TB's & the heads have been cleaned up a little.
These guys regularly embarrass V8's on some tracks.....the look on some of these guys faces when they come over look under the bonnet only to see & be told how basic these are is priceless!
My engine is built the same but with smaller cams & TB.....red line is 7000rpm, but only so i can hold a gear while cornering if required.

 

Is Dave still producing regrinds? I know the cams are like 290* ish.

I know for me. I want a high revving V6 NA. It will be punched out. It will have higher CR, it will have beautifully ported heads, hot cams, adjustible cam gears, and hopfully by that time- someone will have found/made the best intake manifold too.

BJ's intake manifold is by far the best using the shortest runners from the Hyundai 6G74 with a large plenum that's nearly the same displacement as the engine.

 

I know for me. I want a high revving V6 NA. It will be punched out. It will have higher CR, it will have beautifully ported heads, hot cams, adjustible cam gears, and hopfully by that time- someone will have found/made the best intake manifold too.