well, it depends on if you have the money and just dont want to go FI or if you cant afford the price tag because im sure you could do it, it just might be more than a turbo or SDS... first off, if your going all motor you need higher compression pistons (GT, right?) id go with 11:1 or 11.5:1 pistons stage 2 cams gears (something more than a safc to tune) the new ecu flash maybe.. with that i could see low 14's being possible. with more money, you could do a stroker kit and get 3.4 liters i think and then nitrous, you could do a wet shot or direct port with that you might need to look into titanium valves (you only need them for the exhaust side... or is that only popssible on DOHC? not sure) and easilly see your 13's not many people do NA on this car because it is actually cheaper to do turbo or sds than build the motor this much. but if you do more power to you... good luck

Im learning quite a bit on all motor because im helping my friend with his prelude and we are hoping to see 13's when fully done he is basically gonna be doing the same setup that i just listed but without the injectors and titanium valves.

 

hey, for the longest time i have bin lookin at sds's and turbo.. but i had a quick question.. would it be possible w/ the following mods to hit lower or mid 13's...

2000 eclipse gt 5spd fed

ripp headers
full 2.5 exhuast or 3in
test pipe
rpw stage 1 or 2 camshafts + gears
gts intake manifold + 62mm throttle body
safc (dyno tuned)
255lb fuel pump + 310cc injectors
lsd

300lb weight reduction

w/ some good racing tires, would these mods be able to hit 13.2 to 13.5 in a 1/4 mile or not really, if not than what would you need to add to that list?

now i was assuming that would give you somewhere inbetween 230-250whp but that's just a guess from what i know

dont think you can get 13s with all motor, well low 13s that is, im sure high 13s are reasonable, if you dont want to go FI buy NOS

 

dont think you can get 13s with all motor, well low 13s that is, im sure high 13s are reasonable, if you dont want to go FI buy NOS

I completely disagree. While I don't think you're going to run 13 flat, I think that with a complete all motor build (cams, high compression, stroker, proper tuning/reflash, motor mounts, intake/intake manifold, headers/HFC or no cat/catback) you will see between 270-300 whp, and I think 13.2-13.5 is definitely possible. HP wise, that's comparable to a stage 2 SDS or a medium level boosted turbo 6G72 - however, keep in mind the power delivery of the 3 types of build we're talking. A turbo by nature won't reach that peak power until higher in the power band, but with proper shifting it's well utilized. The SDS actually reaches its peak basically at redline, showing a gain over stock across the whole band. However since this peak is so high, very little of your max power is actually used. With all-motor though, you're not waiting on anything to spool or build up, therefore you should see an increase in power across essentially the entire RPM range, both low end torque and high end HP. Once you can launch it correctly and figure out the optimum shift point, I believe power delivery from an all-motor setup would be the most ideal.

Think about it - well driven GTs are right around 15 flat to low 15s stock. There have been plenty with intake, headers, exhaust, and no other major work well into the 14s. I think adding 80-100 whp over an I/H/E setup with an all motor build will easily drop the times by a second...possibly more.

And that's all without the spray - call me crazy but I think a full build + 75 shot might, might, see 12s (high ones of course...)

 

hmm, so let me make a list here

stroker
high comp pistons
clutch + light flywheel
I/H/E (test pipe)
intake manifold (gts or better) w/ throtle body
stage 2 cams and cam gears
Fuel pump, injectors, and good tunning divice
lsd

would reach my goal of having a 13 sec eclipse all motor?

my second question would be, would this be better (engine life wize) than just slapping on a turbo kit or sds.. (w/ out or even w/ changing pistions)
basicly would it be more reliable because your rebuilding the whole engine, and it's build for that kind of power vs just getting a FI w/ out rebuilding your whole motor

 

I'm almost 100% sure that you'd reach 13's with that setup. I know people have tried the all-motor approach to some degree or another a few times but didn't go all out, and weren't all that happy with the results. Turns out though, they'd left out things like the higher compression pistons, or the cams...and no one that I know of has done the stroker. They were still reaching around 240 whp. I dare say that adding a stage 2 cam and a stroker kit will pick up the additional 30 or so whp - you'll probably gain more than that.

Also, I'd think it'd be much better for the motor as long as it's tuned right - everything (with the exception of the rods, and they're supposed to be good upwards of 400 whp) would be upgraded, whereas with an SDS or turbo many people go at first with the stock engine until if/when they blow something. Of course if the tuning is bad, regardless of setup, you're going to run a great risk of blowing up and turning your motor into a pile of :crap:

 

Many members on this board have done N/A and they all say its not worth it, just do a FI

 

Spending all that money to go all motor on this car is pointless and a total waste. You can get the same results or better out of turbocharging a stock engine with a safe tune at 10psi.

 

Honestly on a 3.0 liter motor, its really not worth going all motor, and not saying that just because I'm a V8 guy. The only way to make big power all motor is to spin it to the moon or add alot of cubes. 0.4L from a stroker crank - assuming there is one availible, and if so its probably a custom piece and big $$$ - isn't going to cut it, and you're sacrificing what you can rev to with the longer stroke. And a (relatively) small displacement N/A motor with big cam(s) and hogged out heads is not going to be fun to use as a daily driver, as you'll kill your bottom end torque to make it breathe up high. In general any N/A motor, regardless of size, is going to lose some torque off idle and midrange when you do a buildup. Good port velocity is what makes good torque, and when you run high lift/long duration cams, with big intake ports, you slow down the airflow at low revs to allow sufficient flow at high revs. Its an undefeatable fact, and the basis for the logic behind VTEC.

Now run boost, and even if your not at full boost (wether it be a turbo or a blower), as long as you're making some psi at a given rpm, the motor will be making more power than it would be without the forced induction.

I say go for a forged shortblock and do a good FI or nitrous (talking 100+ shot here) build, and for the same money you'll run a hell of alot faster than trying to do a one-off all motor build.

Its nice to say you're the first guy to hit a 13.9 N/A, but personally I'd rather be the 3rd or 4th guy to hit an 11.5 with a Ripps or Tearstone kit. JMHO.

 

without ready everyone else posts.

i depends on what you run before you do all this. if right now you can hit 14's stock. say 14.9. i do think that with -300lb and everything else. you may see a 13.9999999

 

Just boost it. Then build the motor up. Youll run alot better than mid 13's.:yesway:

 

i thought you got this answer in another thread you posted on the same subject

http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62496

 

i thought you got this answer in another thread you posted on the same subject

http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62496

yeah man, i posted that up, cuz when i posted this one i didint know it was moved, and i just relized.. sorry for the double post, i just wanted a answear fast cuz i have about $7000 right now, and im trying to make a choice on going all motor or FI

 

0.4L from a stroker crank - assuming there is one availible, and if so its probably a custom piece and big $$$ - isn't going to cut it, and you're sacrificing what you can rev to with the longer stroke.

I'd been thinking the crank from the 97-02 Diamante 6G74. 85.8mm stroke compared to our 76mm stroke. However, I don't know for sure if it'd work - I don't know enough about these engines (or really any engines yet) to know for sure.

At any rate, with a $7000 bank, you've got plenty of options. In the end, whatever you do, do it right the first time - you've got the money to probably do any of the 3 (turbo, SDS, or all motor). You could probably even afford to have the cylinders honed and throw some forged pistons in if you went with FI, which would make it a lot more reliable. Don't be in a hurry to just throw something in there because you've got the money available now. Maybe even throw it in a 3 month CD in a bank to let it grow about $2 in interest :lol: (I meant to say $2, that's not a typo) and research everything completely during that time.

 

yeah man, i posted that up, cuz when i posted this one i didint know it was moved, and i just relized.. sorry for the double post, i just wanted a answear fast cuz i have about $7000 right now, and im trying to make a choice on going all motor or FI

im not really sure y this is even a debate...go FI and get more HP and better times or go all motor and get worse HP and times....no brainer especially if u have the $ already

 

im not really sure y this is even a debate...go FI and get more HP and better times or go all motor and get worse HP and times....no brainer especially if u have the $ already

It's a debate in my mind because all the SDS setups I've seen in person (ok, that's not fair, I've only seen 2, but heard about many others) have had problems as they come from RIPP and need fixes to tuning or reworked piping, new parts...always something. The track record for turbos seems better, as long as you make sure you've got the right parts (the Tearstone kit pretty much ensures that you do). But the fact remains that either way, you're boosting a car with an ECU that wasn't meant to see boost, and the ECU quite often doesn't like it. It sounds like only if you go with a full standalone will you actually get the full potential of boost on the GT. And there's even problems with those - Kris wasn't able to get his AEM EMS working and had to order a Haltech. And those get pricey real quick...

No, I don't think you're going to get an all-motor setup to match the potential of the higher PSI FI cars (i.e. an 11 second SDS...you won't TOUCH that all motor). But I do think 13s are possible, and all joking aside, a 13 second car of ANY kind is pretty quick. What does a bone stock Cobra run, high 13s I believe?

 

It's a debate in my mind because all the SDS setups I've seen in person (ok, that's not fair, I've only seen 2, but heard about many others) have had problems as they come from RIPP and need fixes to tuning or reworked piping, new parts...always something. The track record for turbos seems better, as long as you make sure you've got the right parts (the Tearstone kit pretty much ensures that you do). But the fact remains that either way, you're boosting a car with an ECU that wasn't meant to see boost, and the ECU quite often doesn't like it. It sounds like only if you go with a full standalone will you actually get the full potential of boost on the GT. And there's even problems with those - Kris wasn't able to get his AEM EMS working and had to order a Haltech. And those get pricey real quick...

No, I don't think you're going to get an all-motor setup to match the potential of the higher PSI FI cars (i.e. an 11 second SDS...you won't TOUCH that all motor). But I do think 13s are possible, and all joking aside, a 13 second car of ANY kind is pretty quick. What does a bone stock Cobra run, high 13s I believe?

Im sick and tired of everyone saying such things like "this ecu hates boost" Its a computer for God sakes its not a person with feelings. It's much more easily minipulated then the many BENCH RACERS make it out too be. The ecu can more than adequitely be tuned with the Greddy E-manage blue OR Ultimate. Every single TPS kit out there is running one with zero issues. I ran my SDS and Turbo kit with the Greddy E-manage and have never encountered a daily driving or track racing issue at all. So please stop posting annonymous bs that the 3G Rs,Gs, or Gt cant be tuned with anything short of a standalone.

 

Im sick and tired of everyone saying such things like "this ecu hates boost" Its a computer for God sakes its not a person with feelings. It's much more easily minipulated then the many BENCH RACERS make it out too be. The ecu can more than adequitely be tuned with the Greddy E-manage blue OR Ultimate. Every single TPS kit out there is running one with zero issues. I ran my SDS and Turbo kit with the Greddy E-manage and have never encountered a daily driving or track racing issue at all. So please stop posting annonymous bs that the 3G Rs,Gs, or Gt cant be tuned with anything short of a standalone.

OK, point taken, it doesn't have feelings :lol: How about "it's not programmed to handle boost" as a better way of putting it?

Honestly, I'm just going by what I've seen/read. I'll admit that I've only seen two boosted 3G's in real life, both SDS, and one of the two was running like total ass - idle varied from like 500-1500 RPM, bogged down under hard acceleration, all sorts of crap. The other (Kris's) seemed fine but he wasn't that pleased with it yet at that point last fall. Maybe there are plenty of turboed or ripped 3G's out there running with no issues...but that's not what I read about, especially with the SDS. If there ARE that many that are running fine, it will completely change my outlook on modding my 3G because honestly, the reliability issue is my biggest concern. If I can bolt on a suck-through converted SDS and run it with an eManage, get something in the 275-300 whp range with 6-8 psi or so, and have the car still idle properly, not lose acceleration, and overall be reliable, I may completely change my mind.

 

OK, point taken, it doesn't have feelings :lol: How about "it's not programmed to handle boost" as a better way of putting it?

Honestly, I'm just going by what I've seen/read. I'll admit that I've only seen two boosted 3G's in real life, both SDS, and one of the two was running like total ass - idle varied from like 500-1500 RPM, bogged down under hard acceleration, all sorts of crap. The other (Kris's) seemed fine but he wasn't that pleased with it yet at that point last fall. Maybe there are plenty of turboed or ripped 3G's out there running with no issues...but that's not what I read about, especially with the SDS. If there ARE that many that are running fine, it will completely change my outlook on modding my 3G because honestly, the reliability issue is my biggest concern. If I can bolt on a suck-through converted SDS and run it with an eManage, get something in the 275-300 whp range with 6-8 psi or so, and have the car still idle properly, not lose acceleration, and overall be reliable, I may completely change my mind.

That is exactly how my car ran with the conversion kit I funded and had manufactured when I had the sds on my car. Only issue that ever came up is that if you have a sporty you will have to use sportonic mode to shift at WOT otherwise the car will slam into the revlimiter before the computer can shift to the next gear. Personally id rather shift it myself when racing anyways.

I still disagree with people saying "the ecu isnt programmed to handle boost" Its simply not tuned with the proper air/fuel and ignition timing for boost. If this ecu was TRULEY not programmed whatsoever to take boost it would act like a 95-99 eclipse non-turbo which hits fuel cut when in boost without modification.

 

Well (and sorry to the person who started the thread for the blatant thread jacking), if that's the case, then you may have just gone a ways towards changing my mind in a big way. You'd probably talked about your SDS experiences in the past and I just hadn't really noticed, but if your car did honestly run properly with the modified SDS, then that's some definite food for thought. I'm also interested to see what comes of the reflash - whether that will make tuning under boost much easier, to the point that a SAFC or even no piggyback will be fine.

And I've got a 5 speed, so the shifting always has and always will be controlled by me no matter what the situation :lol: So hitting the rev limiter won't be an issue.

 

Your tranny has more to do with putting the power down. Calculate and change your gearing, get real sticky tires.

Same basis as rock crawlers, their gears are made to have some major torque, you can walk faster then them, but they can climb over almost anything because of how much torque they produce.

Gearing can be used as a torque multiplier, your drivetrain just has to hold up. Do it right and youll be ok, but that will be your single largest gain rather then bolt ons.

My opinion, Change the gears, strengthen the tranny or go forced induction. Or both..but go FI first so you know what your dealing with. HP is nice, but Torque gets it done, just be careful, last thing I want to do is give you advice that makes you snaps some half shafts.

 

but most people who do rock crawling just change their ring and pinion if im not mistaking. im sure it would be really hard to change the gearing in a 3g mainly because you have to get right size gears and they have to match up too. i do agree though gearing is everything in performance and if you could gear it right, you could easily have a 13 sec car but no top end.

 

... that means no 180 mph speed runs with your 350 hp eclipse ;p

 

RUN DRAGS

 

PUT N.O.S AND A SLICK AND YOU SEE

 

It's not fucking NOS!:bat: