As some of you know, I have an 01 RS that I turbocharged. I have been running about 9-10psi with my setup for a few years now. I have been limited to that boost level due high EGTs caused by my small injectors (~300-350cc). I am getting some much bigger injectors that will allow me to run higher boost levels, safer.

I was wondering if people could post any stories of 4g64 guys running more than 10psi on stock internals. I want to up my boost level to 12-13psi, but I'm curious to know what the limit of this motor is.

You will be fine xullx was running above 10psi on his stock motor, and its fine.

Come into the irc channel if you want more info.

http://www.club3g.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52866

 

a number of guys have run 14psi on the stock block. Donny has stated that he's run 19psi on the stock block.

 

As some of you know, I have an 01 RS that I turbocharged. I have been running about 9-10psi with my setup for a few years now. I have been limited to that boost level due high EGTs caused by my small injectors (~300-350cc). I am getting some much bigger injectors that will allow me to run higher boost levels, safer.

I was wondering if people could post any stories of 4g64 guys running more than 10psi on stock internals. I want to up my boost level to 12-13psi, but I'm curious to know what the limit of this motor is.

Are you running the SFMU setup or emanage?

 

Stock blocks yes... but what kind of fuel upgrades?

 

Are you running the SFMU setup or emanage?

Right now I'm using the SFMU that came with the turbo kit I bought. As simple as it is, it works great for creating a limitless fuel curve. I was thinking about a SAFC, but I don't know if that would be a whole lot better than my SFMU. An emanage is probably out of the question for me right now due to cash flow.

 

SAFC wouldn't do much more than fine tune it for you. SFMU can be a decent mechanical tuning device. The 2G non tubo guys use it with good results. But for the boost you want to run, 440cc injectors seems the minimum. If you play around with fuel injection calculators, you would be surprised at low hp "big" injectors are good for.

At this point it looks like you are limited only by your fuel upgrades and a good tune. You have a great kit and a strong engine. Even at 10 psi, though, you should be seriously considering pulling back some timing (which the emanage can do) and making sure your air fuel ratio is where is should be. Emanages can be had more cheaply these days.

Or you can wait and save up for a full stand alone like many of the higher HP members are doing. It seems more complicated that I, a beginer, want to deal with, but since you have some experience, you may want to consider it. Also, they guys that do have it seem very willing to help out which is a tremendous resource.

 

I was thinking about going with 550-650cc injectors just to be safe.

I know that an emanage would be the way to go...I'll just have to find someone that knows how to use one so they can teach me - that is, if I can put enough money together. :ugh:

 

DJD; Good job keeping your car running nicely all of this time. You are a prime AAI success story. At any rate, you are also a very late bloomer. It took you a lot longer to get the 'more boost needed itch' than it takes almost all of us.

At any rate.
Keep in mind that your current AAI injectors are designed for extreme fuel pressure. MOst other injectors you will find in the 500cc range, will probably not be. THey will probably get stuck open or closed, and have terrible response once you push them over 75psi, leading to a terribly tune.

YOur car being a 2000 probably doesnt have a knock sensor, like mine, and most 2000s do not.

I would highly advise AGAINST using the emanage becuase of this limiting factor. Unfortunately for you, you are automatic. Tht leaves you with very few options. But playing with the emanage, and no knock sensor is asking for trouble. Also unfortunate, is that getting an EMS is a lot more than just the $1500 dollar unit + sensors since youa re auto. It would require several hours of integration into the automatic PCM system. Balla attempted this, and decided it would be easier to do a manual swap, and rip the stock PCM out, and run fully standalone like I did.

You can go with EVO injectors, and an emanage, and bump the boost up to about 12-15, if your tune is in tip top shape. But emanage and 560s dont play exactly nicely together. Its a bitch to get them to idle like stock, if its even possible at all.

 

Yeah, check out the knock sensor issue. I have a 2000 and do have one, so there is no other way to check other than looking. It should be right below the intake manifold in the middle of the block.

Wait, just noticed you had an 01, so you should be fine. Might be nice to double check anyway.

 

DJD; Good job keeping your car running nicely all of this time. You are a prime AAI success story. At any rate, you are also a very late bloomer. It took you a lot longer to get the 'more boost needed itch' than it takes almost all of us.

At any rate.
Keep in mind that your current AAI injectors are designed for extreme fuel pressure. MOst other injectors you will find in the 500cc range, will probably not be. THey will probably get stuck open or closed, and have terrible response once you push them over 75psi, leading to a terribly tune.

YOur car being a 2000 probably doesnt have a knock sensor, like mine, and most 2000s do not.

I would highly advise AGAINST using the emanage becuase of this limiting factor. Unfortunately for you, you are automatic. Tht leaves you with very few options. But playing with the emanage, and no knock sensor is asking for trouble. Also unfortunate, is that getting an EMS is a lot more than just the $1500 dollar unit + sensors since youa re auto. It would require several hours of integration into the automatic PCM system. Balla attempted this, and decided it would be easier to do a manual swap, and rip the stock PCM out, and run fully standalone like I did.

You can go with EVO injectors, and an emanage, and bump the boost up to about 12-15, if your tune is in tip top shape. But emanage and 560s dont play exactly nicely together. Its a bitch to get them to idle like stock, if its even possible at all.

Nice to hear from you again Napalm. I have a 2001, not a 2000, so I should have a knock sensor. I'll check with my technicians when I go into the dealership where I work at today...I'm sure they can tell me.

So basically, I have two options. If I have a knock sensor, I can go with an emanage. If not, I'm pretty much stuck with my mechanical SFMU. If I can't get the emanage, will the SFMU allow me to alter my fuel curve enough to safely run 12-15psi? (Keep in mind that I do have an EGT gauge and will be able to measure other engine vitals.

Also, how big are the Evo injectors? Are these ones designed for extreme fuel pressure as well? Will they drop right into my eclipse, or will I need to order any custom parts? Or, would I be better off just ordering a huge set of like 700ccs and running them at like 50-60%? If I did that, I could turn my static pressure way down on my SFMU to make it iddle better.

Sorry for all the questions. There's not too many people around where I live that know anything about this car.

What would you suggest Napalm?

 

Nice to hear from you again Napalm. I have a 2001, not a 2000, so I should have a knock sensor. I'll check with my technicians when I go into the dealership where I work at today...I'm sure they can tell me.

So basically, I have two options. If I have a knock sensor, I can go with an emanage. If not, I'm pretty much stuck with my mechanical SFMU. If I can't get the emanage, will the SFMU allow me to alter my fuel curve enough to safely run 12-15psi? (Keep in mind that I do have an EGT gauge and will be able to measure other engine vitals.

Also, how big are the Evo injectors? Are these ones designed for extreme fuel pressure as well? Will they drop right into my eclipse, or will I need to order any custom parts? Or, would I be better off just ordering a huge set of like 700ccs and running them at like 50-60%? If I did that, I could turn my static pressure way down on my SFMU to make it iddle better.

Sorry for all the questions. There's not too many people around where I live that know anything about this car.

What would you suggest Napalm?

Even if you do have a knock sensor. Dont go over 15PSI (MAX) with the emanage. Thats my recommendation.

You cant run big enough injectors for 15psi, with only a SFMU. Your car is likely to run like shit ifyou try.

 

Napalm, I just bought an emanage with a tune from tearstone. So you think I'll be ok @ 15psi?

 

I hope so.
Make sure you have a knock sensor first.

 

I hope so.
Make sure you have a knock sensor first.

I hope so too. I do have a knock sensor. I understand what the purpose of a knock sensor is, but how will the emanage help if I have the knock sensor harness hooked up?

 

I hope so too. I do have a knock sensor. I understand what the purpose of a knock sensor is, but how will the emanage help if I have the knock sensor harness hooked up?

THe knock sensor and stock ECU is waht will help.
When the stock ECU sees knock it will retard timing. That is what will save your engine from dying.

It is completely independant of the emanage.

 

The only thing bad about just relying on the knock sensor is the fact that you are still getting knock and the ecu is retarding timing accordingly. You really dont want any knock at all. So 15psi id say would be pushing it for long term reliablility.

 

The only thing bad about just relying on the knock sensor is the fact that you are still getting knock and the ecu is retarding timing accordingly. You really dont want any knock at all. So 15psi id say would be pushing it for long term reliablility.

Yup, I agree.

 

The car will run fine with bigger injectors and the emanage. Keep in mind you can only go with 250% larger injectors over stock. The eclipse comes with 240cc injectors stock so your max injector size is 600cc. As far as the knock goes these cars can take some abuse I ran 15psi for 30k miles no problems at all.

 

So what's the purpose/advantage of buying the knock sensor harness with the emanage?


I just bought a set of 650cc injectors to make sure I can run rich enough to feed 15psi. I don't plan on running 15psi on the road everyday - I'm just entertaining the thought of crankint it up to 13-14psi for one or two hard runs at the drag strip.

 

So what's the purpose/advantage of buying the knock sensor harness with the emanage?

There is none.

 

There is none.

Thanks - that's kinda what I figured.


I've been doing a lot of reading and research on this 4g64 engine, so I figured I'd share what I've found out about why this motor is so great at holding boost. Tearstone told me that Donny from AAI has put over 26psi to the stock 4g64 - although no more power was made after 15-17psi because of the restrictions of the stock head. How is this possible?- It seems that the reason this motor takes so well to boost is becasue it has an abnormally large piston ring gap. Most natrually aspirated engines have smaller piston ring gaps to create optimal performance under stock N/A conditions. When boosted, the pitson ring expands and butts causing drag, which will in turn cause the piston to crack around ring land. This is why most N/A engines can only handle 8psi or so before pistons start to fall apart. This is also why the 6g72 blows up so often when boosted - it has a very narrow ring gap. The larger the ring gap, the more boost an engine can take before the piston cracks around ring land. 10psi with stock rings and pistons on a 6g72 is playing with fire - many members have blown their engines trying to boost this motor. Conversly, many other members have successfully boosted the 6g72 to 15psi with stock pistons but wider gapped piston rings. What I have gotten from information from tearstone, donny, and other research on the web is that basically this 4g64 engine is a rare exception to the world of N/A motors. It can be boosted very high if the fuel is right and the timing is right.

I think my enigne will hold up just fine under 15psi with an emanage and some bigger injectors, so I'm gonna go for it. And if by some chance it does blow up, that will just force me to build the crap out of my enigne and make an indistructible monster like napalm is doing. :fever:

 

have fun building your motor

 

whoever told you they ran 26psi on the stock motor is a moron
whoever told you they only made 300whp at that boost level is a bigger moron.

you are getting bad information , i hope everything works out for you at 15psi

 

It can be boosted very high if the fuel is right and the timing is right.

Yes, THis is the key to any and ALL successful turbo'd cars. And to be quite blunt, Your timing is not going to be right with the emanage. I dont care what anyone here says. THe only thing is going to save you, is your knock sensor and stock ECU. ANd there is no telling how long it will save you for.

To get an idea of reliable turbo charged tuning:
Stock Evo's run 10.6:1AFR @ 4000rpm and only 4 degrees of timing advance for about 19psi of boost.

 

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.

Tearstone was the one who told me that Donny from AAI got up to 26psi on stock internals. I was just as skeptical as well.

This is why I wanted to get input from everyone - I knew I would get bad info along with the good. Not everyone will agree with the limits of this motor, but the bottom line is there are 3 different members that have boosted 3gs on built internals who are telling me that 15psi is pushing it, so that's what I'm gonna pay attention to. The motor my be ok at 15psi for a while, but I'm not prepared to do a rebuild just yet, so I don't want to bring it that close to the edge - and from what I'm hearing here, 15psi is pretty close to the edge. So, after I install the emanage, I'll see how everything is running. If all is well, I may bring it up to 12psi (as I have already ran 12psi a few times before at the track), but I'll stop there.

Thanks again for all the info.