so its a speed density set up?

 

Looks awesome! Clean.

 

Great build! Nice one for the flash blues

 

very nice, even the underside looks like it could be brand new

 

Seriously, the car looks brand new lol

 

Looks Great!

 

Congrats. Excellent work dude. Color scheme is spot on as well.
I like how you got that evo downpipe on there with little modification.

If I had any suggestion at all, it would be to get prothanes updated front motor mount which you can get seperetly. They redid it by not putting the holes in it for less flex.

 

Spot on! Great work. You have sparked my interest!

I want more! :wavey:

 

Great job and that install looks really clean. Cant wait to hear it with a tune

 

Looks like good work, but put a heat shield on the air filter or move it away from the coolant fan. A sudden change in IAT at idle could cause some annoying stumbling issues.

 

Thanks for all the comments and support guys!

Yes its a speed density set up I have a Omni 4-bar map sensor, no iat sensor though. I've spent so much time on this build im glad to hear all the positive feedback and how much of a problem could my air filter being right by my fan be?

 

thats why i got confused i didnt see iat sensor:yesway:

 

I know with MAF based setups it can be quite a problem(stalling), maybe not as much for speed density.

 

is it still speed density without a iat sensor?

and I got a question... please help guys!!

so I did my initial start up and ran her at 2,500 rpm for 17 mins then brought it down to 1500 for another min or so and shut it off... did oil change and oil filter change, then a day later I did my 5 heat cycle start ups, letting it completely warm up (about 5-7 mins of running) and let it cool ALL the way down, and so on... again, changed oil and filter. after heat cycle 2, I noticed a leak of oil, I managed to seal it and get it to stop, so no more leak. yesterday I started it for the 6th time (after the heat cycles) and its kinda rough sounding, sounds like a high powered quad or slightly like a subie. it is UNTUNED on a 3g eclipse ecu, I have not drove it nor do I plan to until its properly tuned, I also have no maf sensor and a Omni 4-bar map sensor. none of the starts has it wanted to idle by itself; it will just die, but I understand that part and why. im not understanding why its sounding so strange and when I started it up the 6th time, I had no throttle response for a few seconds then it went up to 2k and was sputtering and I heard popping sounds from my exhaust like from unburned fuel or detonation, so I shut it off, also my oil dummy light came on, yet I have an oil pressure gauge and it was normal, and im not low on oil so im really not understanding what's going on.

I know she's running pig rich, moist oily soot coming out of exhaust but can someone help on why it would be sputtering and sounding so knarly? btw, there is NO knocking or ticking just kinda sounds like a big fourwheeler or sti kind of.

also just to clear up peoples replies a little, I have a BRAND new walbro 255 pump, its working just fine, so definatly not that. also the car was parked for 2 years HOWEVER the tank was emptied about 1 week after I initially parked it and I JUST put fresh premium in her the day I did my initial start up. and so far my check engine light hasn't came on so im really confused.

oh and one more thing, im using 3g eclipse coil packs. is that possibly a problem? Im pretty sure they're different than the evo 8/9 coil packs.

 

Running really rich is bad for break in, the excess fuel washes oil off the cylinder walls which lubricate the rings during break in. You need that tuned even with a base map flashed to the 3G PCM or a stock Evo PCM.

 

Okay I just pulled my plugs and theyre all black and wet with fuel. Cylinder one has a couple of carbon chung pieces and is slightly wet. Cylinder two is kinda dry but still has sooty stuff cylinder three is a puddle of fuel and cylinder 4 is slightly wet with fuel aswell. I called english and they said the problem is definatly the coil packs not being enough spark and my o2 sensor telling my ecu to dumb more fuel in so its running EXTREMELY rich. Like I said, im not startng it again until I have a base map tune at least but I still need to fix the issues beforehand. So with all the un burnt fuel, is it JUST the coil packs and no tune? Or is it possibly something else aswell.

The carbon/soot chunks in cylinder one and two kinda scares me. Ill post pics tomorrow or later tonight when I get off work. Plugs look like theyve been soaking in alky and are black and moist.

Thanks for your help guys

 

Your AFR's are probably in the 8's. Without a MAF the ECU goes into limp mode which is a throttle position by RPM based fuel map that dumps a whole bunch of fuel. That is to say it dumps a bunch with stock injectors, with the giant ones you have in there I'm honestly surprised the car even runs.

 

Does he need to run a MAF just to satisfy the computer? Isn't speed density controlling the fuel output?

 

He said he's running a stock 3g ECU with a stock ROM, no tuning has happened yet. So yes, he will run into limp mode immediately because without the MAF plugged in you don't get hertz, baro, or IAT which are the 3 factors that our ECU uses to calculate air flow. Thus limp mode. With huge injectors. And so running pig rich is a dramatic understatement.

 

Okay thank you for the info. Is this also the reason my exhaust was popping and why it sounds like a 4 stroke quad? And yeah I can see my reflection in cyl. 4 and it dont look to pretty lol..... do you guys think I ruined anything?:/

 

Of course you need an IAT, no question. 30 psi @ 75 degrees is way more air than 30 psi at 325 degrees.

 

The 4 stroke quad sound to me means your firing order is off. You can swap a couple wires around on the V6 to make it sound like a harley. But it could be due to the richness also. If all four plugs look the same it's probably just the excess fuel.

I highly doubt you've ruined anything other than maybe the engine oil. Running all that fuel will result in a lot of it running right past the rings into the oil, otherwise it'll simply carbon foul the plugs and chambers but that's nothing a new set of plugs and a run WOT won't fix.

 

The plug wires are correct so nothing is out of firing order but yeah im pretty sure it's the excess fuel. all four plugs are all moist with black soot and I really hope I haven't ruined anything. I was just thinking about the fact that dragsters fuel slips past the rings and into the oil and if my car is running super rich like it was its probably doing the same thing. so English said its from me not running my maf, and having an aftermarked map sensor, so theres no air inlet readings and its in limp mode, just like ya'll have said. I guess the coil packs for the 3g are the same as the evo 8/9 and I have an appointment next Friday (the 20th) to have it tuned and hopefully nothings wrong.

and another thing they said they use a different sensor to get fuel readings or air readings, can't quite remember what Miles said but he did say I don't need a iat sensor, only the map sensor and a patch.

here's what my stuff looks like

plug #1


plugs 1-4 (left to right)


Cyl 1


Cyl 2


Cyl 3 - look at all the fuel just sitting in there... ugh


Cyl 4 - again pretty wet

 

Wow those are wet, I myself wouldn't run the car like that.

 

My oil dummy light came on the last time I started it (when it was sputtering) well also I noticed earlier today, my oil smells like a little fuel. I think thats why the light came on. Are my piston rings junk now? or is it just running so rich its slipping past? Do you guys think I fucked my motor up?? Ughhhhh

Im not starting it anymore im afriad I've already done the damage. I have an appointment next friday at ER so theyll let me know if its junk now or not.

 

I doubt you've done damage yet but I wouldn't run it like that any more. Drain the oil that's in it and send a sample out to blackstone labs. Even though you've barely ran it they'll be able to look for bearing metals and let you know if it looks OK or not. Just let them know it's really rich and all you're looking for are signs of bearing damage due to fuel dilution and that the oil pressure light had come on during break in.

 

Well im pretty sure I haven't done any bearing damage, im more worried about having glazed my piston rings because it will never seat correctly if I have glazed them. I'm wondering if ima have to pull it ALL apart because it doesn't seal properly. idk but ill find out on Friday when I go down to ER to have her tuned.

 

Nice Build!... Now.. how the hell did you decide to start this car without a tune exactly?? Weld an IAT bung and add a sensor, add an omni 4 bar map sensor and tune the car car. After i finished building mine, the first thing i did is call a tuner down to the shop to make me a startup map for the initial break in period.

 

I already have a omni 4-bar map sensor and ER tunes for speed density without an iat sensor, they said its unneccesary. And well I started the car because I've read about all the other guys doing evo head swaps and starting it on stock 3g ecu so I thought it was okay... but I didnt even think about the fact that I have no maf and omni map sensor.

And thank you! I've dedicated the past 2 years worth of paychecks to this build and tried to make it completely one off and stand out from the rest of the swaps

 

Looks really good man :yesway:

 

they they said you dont need an Iat sensor because most evos use the fuel temp sensor as a reference for temp. 3gs dont have a fuel temp sensor so yes you do need a sensor welded in.

the guys at english racing are great they will take care of you they come down once a year to tune the local evo group in vegas. but your car is not an evo it doesnt have the same sensors as an evo and i dont know if they realize that.

Silvertune is absolutly right your afrs are probably in the 8's and there is absolutely fuel in your oil look at the puddle in cylinder 3. that fuel has to go somewhere if it not getting burned and its most likely seeping past your rings washing out your cylinder walls.

i hope there is no serious damaged done but like Goosey said you shouldn't have started the car without a base map.

 

I was unaware of that so I guess I will be needing a iat sensor. do you know how long it would take them to install one?

I changed the oil after all this and I am not starting it until its tuned properly but yes there was some fuel in my oil, I could smell it. as for the washing of the cylinder walls, what are the chances I glazed my piston rings and ruined them from sealing? I started it like 7 times, I did my initial start, oil change, then my 5 heat cycles, and another oil change, then started it 2 days later (the 6th time) and it wasn't running right at all, throttle response was limited and felt like the engine was being flooded out, so I shut it off and well.... yeah. now changed the oil again this time im not touching the car until ER has it.

I didn't really think it was a big deal about starting it, I've read about all the head swap guys running it and doing their initial start up and hell, even DRIVING on the 3g ecu untuned with the headswap and turbo, so I really never thought it would have been a bad idea. Im pretty much figuring that after 2 years of this project ima have to take the whole fucking motor back out and re do what I ruined just from starting it, the piston rings are probably junk now and who knows what else right? I never revved the motor I just held it at 2500 for my initial start up for about 15 mins then did my oil change, then the 5 heat cycles I kept the rpm's between 1500-2500 until the engine was warm then let it drop down to about 1k rpm for 20-30 seconds to let the turbo slow down and then shut it off, let it get COMPLETELY cold then did it again, only until the engine was at operating temperature. so basically the car was ran for about 6 mins each time the head cycle was done. none of the oil changes except for the very first one had minor metal shavings and metallic color to it, but that's only from the seating of the rings and everything.

also there was NO knocking or ticking of any sort the only thing that I did notice is that the car was running super rich, to the point that my eyes were burning like how the nitro methane does to your eyes at the drags. and that black soot shit was coming out of the exhaust but there was no white, blue, nor black smoke.

is there a chance I never hurt the rings guys? Im sorry for writing so much but im worried I really ruined something already, it ran fine all the start ups; I know it was rich but it was running fine. then the 6th start sounded like a 4 stroke quad or subie and was all flooded sounding when I gave it gas trying to get the rpm's up to 2k.